Storm Zon Viability?

[Darthaghar]

[...] like how Paladins have one Caster and one Melee Caster tree (except DONE RIGHT)

There's not even a need for a skill for bosses

You said it yourself I mean what is so exceptional about spamming a single skill the whole time to me that sounds rather "unexeptional" in fact also it was only an example it has nothing to do with the balance between holy and unholy at the moment I was talking purely towards the ONE SPEC which is the WHAT ?no TWO specs ? THREE specs!?!? which are all inside a single tree of 5 skills I mean come on man there has gotta be some "irregularity" here

I mean I dont mean it to be some kind of super powerfull godly "rain of LIGHT-ning" or something I just want it to properly focus on an actual build instead of focusing on a single skill

Also I don't know what "game flow" is about but when you check out a skill tree for a first time and have the impression of "garbage" I think there was definitely some kind of unintentional misshappenings with how the skill tree should be its not like I have anything against the idea of how the skills were designed but being that unintuitive about the skill tree itself I think also is a problem....

[Skeptic_Zero]

One other problem I see with storm zon is if you decide to play it like a melee caster the skills seem to want to make you focus on being a full time melee and a full time caster.. in other words you need FCR and IAS, spell/light damage and physical weapon damage.

That just seems like an unrealistic itemization challenge. From what I know no other single spec in the game forces you to go so hard into two distinctly different playstyles. To compare it to unholy pala for instace, superbeast makes you a melee in practice but a caster in philosophy, so you get IAS without having to go for max FCR and you can likewise safely max spell/cold or fire damage (depending on what skill you choose to use), without having to also have high weapon damage.

I dunno, I like the idea of the spec and would like to try to build it, but it just seems like a schizophrenic idea that forces you to itemize into everything and every stat.

[SeaWeed]

I personally wouldn't level as melee stormzon since you don't have a source of health besides items before lvl 90. For me it didn't feel smooth. In my opinion itemization is generally pretty difficult before sacred items for this spec.
But I think it has a lot of endgame potential

[HechtHeftig]

[...] like how Paladins have one Caster and one Melee Caster tree (except DONE RIGHT)

There's not even a need for a skill for bosses

You said it yourself I mean what is so exceptional about spamming a single skill the whole time to me that sounds rather "unexeptional"

Well that's exactly it. There is no other skill like that in the game for a caster spec. That's why it's exceptional. I understand where you're coming from. I just wanted to point out that this skill is really strong. Maybe boring, but strong.

in fact also it was only an example it has nothing to do with the balance between holy and unholy at the moment I was talking purely towards the ONE SPEC which is the WHAT ?no TWO specs ? THREE specs!?!? which are all inside a single tree of 5 skills I mean come on man there has gotta be some "irregularity" here

Well you did say that Paladins are done right. Hence I couldn't help complaining about that, because for a couple of ladders only Unholy paladin was balanced, even though Holy specs have many more skills to use than lightning zon. This changed now luckily, but saying it was done right in case of pala, isn't exactly fitting right now and in the latest past.

The problem I see is that Amazons have only access to 2 skilltrees at all times (of which one is basically only full of passives). It's a general problem of amazon, not only this one spec. Many people complained about that already, but it doesn't look like it's subject to change. However, having 2 different possible specs inside one tree opens up more diversity. I don't think it's a bad thing, it's rather a big plus. If you don't want to play this way, simply don't play it.

I mean I dont mean it to be some kind of super power full godly "rain of LIGHT-ning" or something I just want it to properly focus on an actual build instead of focusing on a single skill

Also I don't know what "game flow" is about but when you check out a skill tree for a first time and have the impression of "garbage" I think there was definitely some kind of unintentional misshappenings with how the skill tree should be its not like I have anything against the idea of how the skills were designed but being that unintuitive about the skill tree itself I think also is a problem....

The thing is, most builds don't use more than 2 active skills for general gameplay. You usually need 1 skill for crowds and 1 for bosses, but that's not always the case. Saying a single skill can't make up a whole build is something I can't agree with. Look at Pestilence necro, Wyrd assassin with

Nimmenjuushin

Nimmenjuushin
War Axe (Sacred)
One-Hand Damage: (98 - 110) to (221 - 284)
Required Level: 100
Required Strength: 464
Item Level: 105
Strength Damage Bonus: (0.11 per Strength)%
8% Chance to cast level 10 Claw Tornado on Striking
+(4 to 5) to Druid Skill Levels
+12% Bonus Damage to Mark of the Wild
(151 to 175)% Duration Bonus to Mark of the Wild
30% Attack Speed
50% Hit Recovery
+(101 to 150) to Maximum Damage
(8 to 15)% Life stolen per Hit
+(115 to 140)% Enhanced Damage
(21 to 30)% to Strength
Requirements -20%
Socketed (6)

and

Ligeia

Ligeia
Assassin Shields
'OhnUn'
Runeword Level: 115
+6 Life per Cognition
+4 to Assassin Skill Levels
-4% Base Block Chance
50% Hit Recovery
+(20 to 30)% to Physical/Magic Spell Damage
+150% Enhanced Defense
+5000 Defense
(7 to 10)% to All Attributes
+(130 to 150) to Energy
Elemental Resists +(20 to 25)%
Physical Resist 5%

, Tantrum bar/pala, and so on and so on. Don't forget all the builds that become possible just because of a corner stone of the world! There are tons of builds like that. Of course some of those builds only have a single purpose, but that's fine as well. Some of those skills on the other hand can make up a complete build already. And you don't even have to put points into it.

As I said, I think what you're describing is rather the problem of the many passives in the amazon neutral tree and the restriction of the other skill trees, which makes a build boring.

And about game flow: in case of Holy caster spec of Paladin, it's a real hurdle to make it feel natural because:

1. Solare flare is mandatory. However it disables all possible caster oskills for 10 seconds. So this skill completely denys your flexibility, which you really need in Median. (At least this was true in the previous patch)
2. You skill either frozen breath and Drakemaw so you have viable options for clearing lots of (ranged) enemies at the same time. However both feel the same. The only big difference is the type of damage. Variety? none. It's all the same anyway. But since Wyrms only slowly builds up and is rather weak in early game, you probably want to max both skills and switch between them.
3. You need to skill wyrms in order to kill bosses.
4. you still need defense and other utility skills.

To sum it up: You need to cast 1 useless mandatory skill all the time, you probably want 2 attack skills for groups of enemies and 1 for single targets. So including the passive in the skill tree you have 3-4 skills you want to max. + Dragonheart + a vessel. That sums up to 5-6 skills to max in total. However, you can only max 6 skills in endgame, and you definitely want to have blessed life to the point where you get 50% DR including gear. So that forces you to abondon 1 group clear skill and rely on the Wyrms as your second type of damage, but that reduces your killspeed a lot in general gameplay. Or you max Solar flare instead of wyrms, but then you have lots of issues with ranged Magic/Ice immunes (depending on which skill you chose) and struggle a lot with bosses.

This whole process simply feels completely unnatural and makes you waste lots of skillpoints, which you'd rather invest into dragonheart for more defense or one of the neutral trees to grant access for a nice damage in mid range-melee range.

What it comes down to is: the game flow isn't good even though you have access to multiple skills. It feels annoying and slabby. Most people would rather play a build that's much easier to handle and to be honest, the gameflow of any skill in the lightning tree is much better than that. There's a reason why there are memes about holy caster din in the "make your own meme" thread.

That's why lightning tree from amazon is still better than holy caster. I too, would rather have a single skill killing everything with a completely character-typical spec of passives instead of going through the hell of playing holy caster, even though Holy caster has many more skills to use.

TL/DR: I only explained all that because you didn't know what I mean with gameflow. If it's clunky and slabby, it's bad. If it feels natural it's good. There's of course an example of a well-designed spec that requires lots of skills and personal skill and still feels natural: Any melee assassin.


@Skecptic_Zero You can also just chose for one path. All of the skills in the lightning tree do at least 2 types of damage (lightning ofc and physical). So you don't need to stack both FCR and IAS. Just chose one and stick with the appropriate skill.

@SeeWeed I agree. There are awefully few items for a stormzon in early game. That's something that I hope will improve in the next few patches and ofc in sigma.

[GregMXL]

Don't forget you can compliment a lot of your caster skills with oskills. Thunderstone, devouring cloud, hailstorm, brimstone.. The thing with paladin is caster spec is still better as Unholy. But Holy melee was much improved. With Amazon, Bona Dea with xis runeword looks strong.

[Crash]

^ it is a strong xis runeword. using it on my zon.

As for stormzon melee chat, you can't realy comment much on it since there are no items that actually suit the build. You could argue for a few, but they're pretty meh since Thundercrack doesn't proc on attack (rip

Bane

and

Bane (Xis)

). Can't do much with on striking procs since none of the skills multihit frequently enough. Unless you use Danmaku, you're out of luck there too.

The set, honestly, is fine. Divine Judgment is great, its pretty tanky. How many people have actually tried to play melee stormzon though instead of just looking at the tree and saying, "welp, it looks like shit. no thanks"?

[Naabaanit]

^ it is a strong xis runeword. using it on my zon.

As for stormzon melee chat, you can't realy comment much on it since there are no items that actually suit the build. You could argue for a few, but they're pretty meh since Thundercrack doesn't proc on attack (rip

Bane

and

Bane (Xis)

). Can't do much with on striking procs since none of the skills multihit frequently enough. Unless you use Danmaku, you're out of luck there too.

The set, honestly, is fine. Divine Judgment is great, its pretty tanky. How many people have actually tried to play melee stormzon though instead of just looking at the tree and saying, "welp, it looks like shit. no thanks"?

I have personally tried to level the stormzon every ladder it has been put into the game and the only thing that has worked well and is accessible is casting with stromcall. Everything else available to this build, spare the passive which is fantastic, is just awkward and experimental. You can very obviously tell that Amazon was never meant to swing a one handed weapon that isn't a javelin, especially a scepter of all things (which is weird to say because this mod makes the sorceress melee-viable, which was never meant to happen). Magnetic field sounds great for procs, and it is if you have items that offer them in a healthy amount, but the damage is pitiful without the use of procs. Stormcrack is just...eh...? Again, when a melee zon, who happens to have god awful hit recovery frames, jumps into melee with a scepter and swings causing a farther reach, non-multihitting, phys-conversion lightning bolt to shoot out of her forehead...it just doesn't work out.

There are no items during the leveling phase that really help besides the obvious jitans, lionpaw, deadfall, maybe even auriel's crown or caster helm runeword bona dea for magic supplement. Banner of duncraig would be pretty good for getting fortress out to spread procs but it just isn't enough and stormcrack can't even proc it. Not to mention the scepter doesn't scale with the proper stat (unless it does now) and it's a character that needs investment into dex and strength (little less into dex because of passive-- score) so the character just feels unnatural to play, even with the much-better-than-melee caster stormcall version.

TL:DR Stormzon in melee will never work for a LOT of people unless things are changed around or at least some items are added to work with the class. The build was probably meant to be a hybrid anyway and the set highlights that, but that's it.

[Crash]

Banner of Duncraig

Banner of Duncraig
Kite Shield (4)
Defense: (138 - 157) to (266 - 305)
Chance to Block: Class%
Required Level: 5
Required Strength: 28
Required Dexterity: 59
Item Level: 10
1% Chance to cast level 1 Fortress on Melee Attack
2% Chance to cast level 1 Bloodlust on Melee Attack
+(18 to 35)% Enhanced Defense
+(9 to 15) to Strength
+(9 to 15) to Dexterity
Lightning Resist +(16 to 25)%
Cold Resist +(16 to 25)%
Socketed (1)
Defense: (462 - 513) to (817 - 909)
Chance to Block: Class%
Required Level: 23
Required Strength: 55
Required Dexterity: 87
Item Level: 36
2% Chance to cast level 5 Fortress on Melee Attack
3% Chance to cast level 5 Bloodlust on Melee Attack
+(52 to 69)% Enhanced Defense
+(23 to 29) to Strength
+(23 to 29) to Dexterity
Lightning Resist +(36 to 45)%
Cold Resist +(36 to 45)%
Socketed (3)
Defense: (1174 - 1274) to (2015 - 2188)
Chance to Block: Class%
Required Level: 40
Required Strength: 193
Required Dexterity: 183
Item Level: 51
3% Chance to cast level 9 Fortress on Melee Attack
4% Chance to cast level 9 Bloodlust on Melee Attack
+(87 to 103)% Enhanced Defense
+(37 to 43) to Strength
+(37 to 43) to Dexterity
Lightning Resist +(56 to 65)%
Cold Resist +(56 to 65)%
Socketed (4)
Defense: (1744 - 1881) to (2982 - 3216)
Chance to Block: Class%
Required Level: 49
Required Strength: 385
Required Dexterity: 378
Item Level: 85
4% Chance to cast level 11 Fortress on Melee Attack
4% Chance to cast level 11 Bloodlust on Melee Attack
+(104 to 120)% Enhanced Defense
+(44 to 50) to Strength
+(44 to 50) to Dexterity
Lightning Resist +(66 to 75)%
Cold Resist +(66 to 75)%
Socketed (4)

won't work with Thundercrack, but I'll take your word for playing it every season, even though I know Thundercrack doesn't proc on melee attack.

If that change is made to allow on attack procs, the build might open up more. As of this moment, the full Zerae set isn't terrible. Divine Judgment in its current state is a very strong oskill.

[Naabaanit]

Banner of Duncraig

Banner of Duncraig
Kite Shield (4)
Defense: (138 - 157) to (266 - 305)
Chance to Block: Class%
Required Level: 5
Required Strength: 28
Required Dexterity: 59
Item Level: 10
1% Chance to cast level 1 Fortress on Melee Attack
2% Chance to cast level 1 Bloodlust on Melee Attack
+(18 to 35)% Enhanced Defense
+(9 to 15) to Strength
+(9 to 15) to Dexterity
Lightning Resist +(16 to 25)%
Cold Resist +(16 to 25)%
Socketed (1)
Defense: (462 - 513) to (817 - 909)
Chance to Block: Class%
Required Level: 23
Required Strength: 55
Required Dexterity: 87
Item Level: 36
2% Chance to cast level 5 Fortress on Melee Attack
3% Chance to cast level 5 Bloodlust on Melee Attack
+(52 to 69)% Enhanced Defense
+(23 to 29) to Strength
+(23 to 29) to Dexterity
Lightning Resist +(36 to 45)%
Cold Resist +(36 to 45)%
Socketed (3)
Defense: (1174 - 1274) to (2015 - 2188)
Chance to Block: Class%
Required Level: 40
Required Strength: 193
Required Dexterity: 183
Item Level: 51
3% Chance to cast level 9 Fortress on Melee Attack
4% Chance to cast level 9 Bloodlust on Melee Attack
+(87 to 103)% Enhanced Defense
+(37 to 43) to Strength
+(37 to 43) to Dexterity
Lightning Resist +(56 to 65)%
Cold Resist +(56 to 65)%
Socketed (4)
Defense: (1744 - 1881) to (2982 - 3216)
Chance to Block: Class%
Required Level: 49
Required Strength: 385
Required Dexterity: 378
Item Level: 85
4% Chance to cast level 11 Fortress on Melee Attack
4% Chance to cast level 11 Bloodlust on Melee Attack
+(104 to 120)% Enhanced Defense
+(44 to 50) to Strength
+(44 to 50) to Dexterity
Lightning Resist +(66 to 75)%
Cold Resist +(66 to 75)%
Socketed (4)

won't work with Thundercrack, but I'll take your word for playing it every season, even though I know Thundercrack doesn't proc on melee attack.

If that change is made to allow on attack procs, the build might open up more. As of this moment, the full Zerae set isn't terrible. Divine Judgment in its current state is a very strong oskill.

I should have specified with the Banner of Duncraig that in theory it would be good...it's just another reason this tree needs work both items and skills-wise.

Stormzon is just in a bad spot.

[archon256]

Since Hammer of Zarae was buffed to 150% wdm, it's become quite useful as well. you can easily reck lots of enemies and it doesn't only get strong with + skills but it also scales with wdm.

I have two problems with this skill:


1. It's just a really inefficient way to apply damage to enemies because you have to wait for the hammers to slowly spin outwards and hit enemies, while hoping that the hammers won't just miss entirely. Median XL is, at it's core, a game where you fight a ton of enemies at once and have to blow them all away as fast as you can. Stormcall is one of the most efficient ways to apply damage, while HoZ is on the other extreme. Whirlwind is similarly a bad skill mechanically in MXL because of how many enemies it can hit at once, and Marco had to give the barb's WW skill a lot of bonuses to make it useful.

2. It does really, really bad damage against lightning immune enemies. Even with 150% wdm the majority of your damage comes from the flat lightning damage component of the skill, and scepters have pretty low physical damage as it is. So when leveling with this skill you'll be slowly clearing screens compared to many other skills (see point 1 above) and then you'll run into a pack of lightning immune enemies and then your gameplay slows to a crawl.

You can of course get past both these difficulties by just farming/twinking enough gear, but it's still a problematic skill. Why go through all that hassle of farming gear to play a gimped WDM/caster when you can just go full caster with Stormcall? Or better yet, play an actual caster like Sorceress who comes with both mob clearing skills and single-target skills, while also being able to easily kill immunes by having access to four flavors of damage from spells (two out of F/C/L/P plus phys+magic from netural tree).

@SeeWeed I agree. There are awefully few items for a stormzon in early game. That's something that I hope will improve in the next few patches and ofc in sigma.

I've been asking this for years now