Hi, before going on with the topic, I need to say that Median is my favorite ARPG ever made. With the most interesting lategame, many character optimization options, strong memorable enemies and so on.
The last time I played Median was when Laz was still in charge, but I followed the development of Sigma now and then and thought about beginning to play again, when Sigma is released.
Now after having started, I stumbled over some changes that I dont quite understand:
The respec recipe was removed.
I am one of the people who try different builds, even when leveling up or respec to meet certain challenges. I know this is still possible by using belladonna extracts or using Akaras respec, but the option is now hidden behind a very time consuming wall.
Can someone explain me the reasons for this change, as I didnt find the changelog where it was removed.
Possible arguments I can think of, from discussions in other forums:
Difficulty
Some people argue that having no easy respec makes the game more difficult. But I think this is wrong, because you can still have every character option available, its just much more time consuming, because you either need to farm something or need to create new characters.
Unique characters
Another argument often brought up, is characters being more unique when there is no respec. Though in my eyes, this is also wrong, because again you are able to recreate every build posted on the internet, you just need more time to farm belladonna or play a new character through the game, if there wouldnt be any respec option.
No need to play new characters
This argument would only really apply to games without respec at all. Even then though, it still feels like a bad argument, because free respec does not hinder anyone from playing new characters if they like to.
Not having free respec, but rather hard to farm respec, really feels like a mechanic from a mobile game. Though, without having microtransactions in the game, I dont see any advantages for the devs. So please explain to me why this feature was removed.
Why was free respec removed?
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you actualy got access to more respec than you need . in the very few hours needed to get from act 1 normal to act 1 hell (you can do this in an afternoon) you get access to 3 free respecs from Akara (1 per difficulty). i don't think you would need more respec in those very few hours - actually , you should not need any of it . after that , you will find Belladonas - so many of them that you will throw them away most of them time/not bother to pick them up anymore - they start dropping more often as you advance into the game difficulty . you will find between 2 and 20 per day depending on how much time you will spend farming (and luck)
ChuckNoRis wrote:you actualy got access to more respec than you need . in the very few hours needed to get from act 1 normal to act 1 hell (you can do this in an afternoon) you get access to 3 free respecs from Akara (1 per difficulty). i don't think you would need more respec in those very few hours - actually , you should not need any of it . after that , you will find Belladonas - so many of them that you will throw them away most of them time/not bother to pick them up anymore - they start dropping more often as you advance into the game difficulty . you will find between 2 and 20 per day depending on how much time you will spend farming (and luck)
I did not say I need them. I say it would increase my enjoyment of the game. Its not rare for me to change to a different build every 10-20 levels, sometimes realizing the build doesnt play the way I thought, switching again.
Assuming games are meant to be fun, the question shouldnt be "what do you need to complete the game" but rather "what makes the game fun while playing the game".
I ask you, would it interfere with your way to play the game when they readd the feature?
jaeaxe420 wrote:Are you playing single player? If so you can just download offline tools and you can respec whenever you want.
"Third party tools" is also a common argument, but Median already had the feature in the game ..... why remove it in the first place, if there are so many other ways to do it anyway?
It was removed in order to prevent people from playing optimal (to rephrase, from "cheesing" ubers with the most optimal specialization for your class) and to prove that you can complete most of the content without the need for respec. As for inability to test some different builds and specs, removal oil of absolution from the shop has came as an unfortunate side effect.
SwineFlu wrote:It was removed in order to prevent people from playing optimal (to rephrase, from "cheesing" ubers with the most optimal specialization for your class) and to prove that you can complete most of the content without the need for respec. As for inability to test some different builds and specs, removal oil of absolution from the shop has came as an unfortunate side effect.
Isnt trying to play optimal the way those games are meant to be played? I always thought that the reason to specialize for certain ubers was something which made Median different and better than other ARPGs. Also, assuming the drop rates of belladonna extracts are, as ChuckNoRis said, what is keeping people from still cheesing lategame ubers? Instead of making the availability to respec more time consuming, why not prevent the cheese mechanicallywise?
Needing to respec was never something bad for me, why does every build need to be able to clear the entire content?
I agree that farming should be possible for every build, because this is the main part of the game and essential for progression, but for me clearing specific ubers or completing certain challenges should require some preparation.
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Yeah I agree that they treated the symptoms, not the cause. But I‘m pretty sure that there‘s a lot more to the dev‘s plan. What we see right now as sigma... I‘d call it something like an open beta because many things they wanted to implement, didn‘t make it in time for the release. Just look at the necromancer wands. There are only 2 SU wands in total, despite the fact that they planned adding 1-2 SU‘s for each type of equipment and that there are I think 6 different wand types? My point is: we should wait and see what the future brings. And yes, talking about these things is the best you can do rn.
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my issue is the respeccing skills to test variations of it becomes a struggle. single player is the only real way to deal with it.
You want more build diversity so you make respecs more rare? All that'll do is get players to follow very specific builds that have shown to do well and less likely to experiment with others. People take the path of least resistance most of the time. If they know it works they'll use it. if the cost of making changes/adjustments isn't extreme then they might make that choice for enjoyment purposes. But when that cost becomes high . . . good luck incentivizing them with experimenting.
I do agree that no one build should be capable of every ober. Each class should have probably 2 different builds for farm content. With the amount of options available that seems pretty reasonable.
Maybe one well rounded build which is solid for the initial leveling process and low ubers
have the high ubers very specific to melee or ranged type play. a phys hitting boss that teleports every 1-2 seconds with an immediate attack (no delay between) is extremely punishing for ranged and almost forces a tanky melee style. But for that to be acceptable, every class would need a type of melee build that's tanky enough to manage it (so assassins right now would be screwed lol).
It's not an easy thing to balance, and cheese will always exist you can't remove it. Players will find a way to innovate a difficult boss to make it "farmable". especially when the rewards from that boss are significant (such as really low drop rate trophy, or a charm that you want a closer to perfect copy). The change for bella's seems aimed more at "play the game more" or "follow this guide or be heavily heavily punished"
Changing specs for ubers that are done by specific builds isn't even a strong argument. Since you get enough bella's to make that change to farm that uber specifically then switch back to your farm build. The time it takes to drop items needed for your uber focused build is more than enough for enough for bella's to drop. So it's ended up as just a means to prevent people from testing builds out often enough, and delaying an "op build" discovery for as long as possible.
edit: it also de incentives new players at a games inception. They should've implemented Bella's one or two resets after such a massive patch change. After people have had time to test. theirs not enough guides up currently for a new player to have any idea of what they're doing. since the item changes/mo nerfs and even incomplete documentation trivializes most of those setups outside the leveling process. AT least then the effects wouldn't be as harsh. Alternatively, give a place biased drop rates towards bella's that doesn't require obsurd levels. (i personally haven't found hardly any in multiple 100+ classes outside 120+ area's. it's literally easier to sell a set item or two and buy it with tg at this point)
You want more build diversity so you make respecs more rare? All that'll do is get players to follow very specific builds that have shown to do well and less likely to experiment with others. People take the path of least resistance most of the time. If they know it works they'll use it. if the cost of making changes/adjustments isn't extreme then they might make that choice for enjoyment purposes. But when that cost becomes high . . . good luck incentivizing them with experimenting.
I do agree that no one build should be capable of every ober. Each class should have probably 2 different builds for farm content. With the amount of options available that seems pretty reasonable.
Maybe one well rounded build which is solid for the initial leveling process and low ubers
have the high ubers very specific to melee or ranged type play. a phys hitting boss that teleports every 1-2 seconds with an immediate attack (no delay between) is extremely punishing for ranged and almost forces a tanky melee style. But for that to be acceptable, every class would need a type of melee build that's tanky enough to manage it (so assassins right now would be screwed lol).
It's not an easy thing to balance, and cheese will always exist you can't remove it. Players will find a way to innovate a difficult boss to make it "farmable". especially when the rewards from that boss are significant (such as really low drop rate trophy, or a charm that you want a closer to perfect copy). The change for bella's seems aimed more at "play the game more" or "follow this guide or be heavily heavily punished"
Changing specs for ubers that are done by specific builds isn't even a strong argument. Since you get enough bella's to make that change to farm that uber specifically then switch back to your farm build. The time it takes to drop items needed for your uber focused build is more than enough for enough for bella's to drop. So it's ended up as just a means to prevent people from testing builds out often enough, and delaying an "op build" discovery for as long as possible.
edit: it also de incentives new players at a games inception. They should've implemented Bella's one or two resets after such a massive patch change. After people have had time to test. theirs not enough guides up currently for a new player to have any idea of what they're doing. since the item changes/mo nerfs and even incomplete documentation trivializes most of those setups outside the leveling process. AT least then the effects wouldn't be as harsh. Alternatively, give a place biased drop rates towards bella's that doesn't require obsurd levels. (i personally haven't found hardly any in multiple 100+ classes outside 120+ area's. it's literally easier to sell a set item or two and buy it with tg at this point)
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None of the 3 reasons you listed are the reason why respec was changed.
But since there have been some topics about this, I'll take the opportunity to explain our reasons:
The primary reason respecs are not free anymore is so that you're not expected to respec as a part of completing (or even playing) the game. Sure, limiting respecs won't fix the issue per se, but it makes it a lot more evident which builds are lacking viable AoE+Bosskiller skill combos. Just look at skill/builds changes over the past years and how most builds have currently quite defined aoe/single skills.
Other issues in the game are also evidenced thanks to the new respec system. For example, take a look at the amount of times the kabraxis gem upgrade has been pointed out recently, with it hardly ever being mentioned during the "free-respec" era. This is a clear example of respec-driven content and it needs to be taken out. There is a similar case with witch uber, where a vit respec is too good to pass up. Things like these make it much easier to detect problematic ubers and fix them accordingly so that they are not balanced around respec strats.
And that's ultimately the goal, that things are balanced around a respec-less game instead of min-max cheese strats. Having a game where the rewarding strat is to fully turn your character around constantly is not only impossible to balance, it's also really counterproductive to the aRPG genre, so it's no surprise that "doing stuff to improve your character" should be more rewarding than some chess play.
The "X thing is now more rare so it just takes Y more time" argument can be pretty much be made for every feature ever honestly. And things are for sure not as trivial as the argument tries to put it. If Vizjun drops were increased by x100, it wouldn't just mean it takes 1/100 of the time to do whatever you were doing there, would it? It would have a much greater impact, making other zones worthless to farm, other builds meta, etc.
It's no different with respecs. Rarer respecs dont *just* mean you've been magically slowed down in time. The rarer respec is, the more rewarding it becomes sticking to your original plan / build as opposed to respeccing your way out. We want people to succeed with their builds and not constantly be resorting to "plan B" until they reach the point they have no more idea what their build / gear does anymore. And this being Median, you're never locked behind a true wall. There's always endless room for improvement, be it from jewels, sigs, leveling, and tons of the early rifts being able to provide worthy items. A lot of people give up too quick, and respec promotes that.
How is the bella rarity even releated to build diversity? People will pick meta builds during the early period of a ladder regardless, so the rarity of respec doesn't really matter. The item/build experimentation phase of the ladder usually kicks in after a few weeks, at the same time bella cost drops to a measly 5TG or less. Somehow you make it sound as if optimizing a build took dozens of tries, when in reality 1-3 will get the job done.
Yes, it de-incentivizes newbies from giving up on their builds too soon and failing on their next one - especially those that like to do it pre-emptively from desperation and end up with a half baked build. Respec being more rare can't be presented as a newbie-punishing change when it considerably punishes people with understanding of mechanics a lot more.
But since there have been some topics about this, I'll take the opportunity to explain our reasons:
The primary reason respecs are not free anymore is so that you're not expected to respec as a part of completing (or even playing) the game. Sure, limiting respecs won't fix the issue per se, but it makes it a lot more evident which builds are lacking viable AoE+Bosskiller skill combos. Just look at skill/builds changes over the past years and how most builds have currently quite defined aoe/single skills.
Other issues in the game are also evidenced thanks to the new respec system. For example, take a look at the amount of times the kabraxis gem upgrade has been pointed out recently, with it hardly ever being mentioned during the "free-respec" era. This is a clear example of respec-driven content and it needs to be taken out. There is a similar case with witch uber, where a vit respec is too good to pass up. Things like these make it much easier to detect problematic ubers and fix them accordingly so that they are not balanced around respec strats.
And that's ultimately the goal, that things are balanced around a respec-less game instead of min-max cheese strats. Having a game where the rewarding strat is to fully turn your character around constantly is not only impossible to balance, it's also really counterproductive to the aRPG genre, so it's no surprise that "doing stuff to improve your character" should be more rewarding than some chess play.
but the option is now hidden behind a very time consuming wall.
The "X thing is now more rare so it just takes Y more time" argument can be pretty much be made for every feature ever honestly. And things are for sure not as trivial as the argument tries to put it. If Vizjun drops were increased by x100, it wouldn't just mean it takes 1/100 of the time to do whatever you were doing there, would it? It would have a much greater impact, making other zones worthless to farm, other builds meta, etc.
It's no different with respecs. Rarer respecs dont *just* mean you've been magically slowed down in time. The rarer respec is, the more rewarding it becomes sticking to your original plan / build as opposed to respeccing your way out. We want people to succeed with their builds and not constantly be resorting to "plan B" until they reach the point they have no more idea what their build / gear does anymore. And this being Median, you're never locked behind a true wall. There's always endless room for improvement, be it from jewels, sigs, leveling, and tons of the early rifts being able to provide worthy items. A lot of people give up too quick, and respec promotes that.
cyborgtemplar wrote:You want more build diversity so you make respecs more rare?
How is the bella rarity even releated to build diversity? People will pick meta builds during the early period of a ladder regardless, so the rarity of respec doesn't really matter. The item/build experimentation phase of the ladder usually kicks in after a few weeks, at the same time bella cost drops to a measly 5TG or less. Somehow you make it sound as if optimizing a build took dozens of tries, when in reality 1-3 will get the job done.
cyborgtemplar wrote:edit: it also de incentives new players at a games inception
Yes, it de-incentivizes newbies from giving up on their builds too soon and failing on their next one - especially those that like to do it pre-emptively from desperation and end up with a half baked build. Respec being more rare can't be presented as a newbie-punishing change when it considerably punishes people with understanding of mechanics a lot more.
Marco wrote:The primary reason respecs are not free anymore is so that you're not expected to respec as a part of completing (or even playing) the game. Sure, limiting respecs won't fix the issue per se, but it makes it a lot more evident which builds are lacking viable AoE+Bosskiller skill combos. Just look at skill/builds changes over the past years and how most builds have currently quite defined aoe/single skills.
If you want to know which builds are lacking, just ask your veteran players. I assume most will be able to tell you which ones are lacking, without the need to limit respecs.
Marco wrote:Other issues in the game are also evidenced thanks to the new respec system. For example, take a look at the amount of times the kabraxis gem upgrade has been pointed out recently, with it hardly ever being mentioned during the "free-respec" era. This is a clear example of respec-driven content and it needs to be taken out. There is a similar case with witch uber, where a vit respec is too good to pass up. Things like these make it much easier to detect problematic ubers and fix them accordingly so that they are not balanced around respec strats.
And that's ultimately the goal, that things are balanced around a respec-less game instead of min-max cheese strats. Having a game where the rewarding strat is to fully turn your character around constantly is not only impossible to balance, it's also really counterproductive to the aRPG genre, so it's no surprise that "doing stuff to improve your character" should be more rewarding than some chess play.
I can understand the idea behind the design decision, but I dont agree with it. Streamlining all challenges so all characters (or even builds) can do them isnt something I wish for, because I liked the "chess play" in combination with farming. But I admit that is just my opinion and other people may like being able to clear all content with their favorite build or character. So cant really argue on that.
But assuming you have reached your goal, how does limitless respec interfere with that? Like someone else said before, you are treating symptoms instead of the reason. Removing the ability to easily test other builds or skill combinations, just so you can see which ubers get the most hate?
Would it be an option for you to put free respec back in the game when all ubers seem to be balanced?
Marco wrote:but the option is now hidden behind a very time consuming wall.
The "X thing is now more rare so it just takes Y more time" argument can be pretty much be made for every feature ever honestly. And things are for sure not as trivial as the argument tries to put it. If Vizjun drops were increased by x100, it wouldn't just mean it takes 1/100 of the time to do whatever you were doing there, would it? It would have a much greater impact, making other zones worthless to farm, other builds meta, etc.
It's no different with respecs. Rarer respecs dont *just* mean you've been magically slowed down in time. The rarer respec is, the more rewarding it becomes sticking to your original plan / build as opposed to respeccing your way out. We want people to succeed with their builds and not constantly be resorting to "plan B" until they reach the point they have no more idea what their build / gear does anymore. And this being Median, you're never locked behind a true wall. There's always endless room for improvement, be it from jewels, sigs, leveling, and tons of the early rifts being able to provide worthy items. A lot of people give up too quick, and respec promotes that.
I am talking about punishing certain playstyles, like changing your build often. You can still do it, but first you need to invest time, you maybe didnt want to invest with your current build. It isnt more rewarding if I dont want to stay on that build, its just frustrating having to wait. Thats why I said it feels like a mobile game feature, waiting for something instead of actually playing the game the way I want.
For me respec is a basic feature, which shouldnt be dependent on the gameplay. What you are describing, namely "farming" is the core gameplay of the genre. Farming for character improvement .... now ask the people if they feel like belladonna extract dropping gives them a feel of character improvement, so I dont think your analogy fits.
Let me make an analogy to explain my point:
Lets assume your stash could only hold one item, and getting a bigger stash would require a rare drop, just like belladonna extract. This would be the same for me, having a basic feature hidden behind a time consuming wall, instead of investing that time on character improvement.
Marco wrote:cyborgtemplar wrote:You want more build diversity so you make respecs more rare?
How is the bella rarity even releated to build diversity? People will pick meta builds during the early period of a ladder regardless, so the rarity of respec doesn't really matter. The item/build experimentation phase of the ladder usually kicks in after a few weeks, at the same time bella cost drops to a measly 5TG or less. Somehow you make it sound as if optimizing a build took dozens of tries, when in reality 1-3 will get the job done.
But if someone needs 5 or 10 respecs to find the combination he is looking for? How can you decide how many respecs people need and how does limitless respec interfere with the people only needing 1-3?
Marco wrote:cyborgtemplar wrote:edit: it also de incentives new players at a games inception
Yes, it de-incentivizes newbies from giving up on their builds too soon and failing on their next one - especially those that like to do it pre-emptively from desperation and end up with a half baked build. Respec being more rare can't be presented as a newbie-punishing change when it considerably punishes people with understanding of mechanics a lot more.
You bring your own counter argument: when respeccing ends you up with a half baked build, with limitless respec you can simply go back or make further adjustments. With limited respec, you maybe even have to give up on your character and start anew.
Limited respec punishes both newbies and veterans alike. Since when is punishing playes a good thing anyway.