Diablo III: Reaper of Souls

to be fair i'm not only against D3 but most of the actual gaming industry. it seems nowdays making videogames is all about getting players to spend money (see freemium game dominance) rather than make something that is genuinely fun. I mean it's ok to make money and want money, but balancing and shaping a game towards people putting money in just seems so pathetic and frustrating to see.

Marco wrote:i assume there must be some kind of survival/endless/progressive mode where mobs get more HP.
whether that qualifies as infinite difficulty or not, is rly no serious argument lol.

How is scaling HP/dmg so different from all the ubers you've made that are basically "here's a one-shot mechanism - see if you can dodge/cheese it"?

@your comments on the industry as a whole I largely agree (though there are a few exceptions were freemium works out well), but that is to be expected from any industry that grows from the underground to the mainstream scene.

Food wrote:Never played any incarnation on d3, I'm just curious though.

What does this
Jelle wrote:difficulty litterally scales infinitely

mean?

I'm not being pedantic here, I really can't put a meaning to those words.

01001010 is right that it's basically just a hp/damage increase. It works well for games with regular content updates (= power creep)

How is scaling HP/dmg so different from all the ubers you've made that are basically "here's a one-shot mechanism - see if you can dodge/cheese it"?

I can explain you why +hp +dmg adds no difficulty to the game. The more damage a monster/mob has, the more survability you need, in order to be efficient in terms of how often you die. Eventually, if monsters "just do more damage" then you "just get more survability", either by getting better gear or sacrificing damage. So eventually you deal less damage and monsters have more health so this simply becomes a bigger and bigger time sink. Simple, huh?

A smarter approach would be focusing on doing trickier AIs. This, for example, is a huge limitation in median, as there is only one 'decently smart' AI, but guess what, it can't even walk. So it isn't really fair to compare what me/laz (single persons) can do with a limited 16 year old engine, compared to an entire dev team of supposedly "professionals" (doubtful) who are working with source code.

There are infinite more ways to add difficulty, you could use the scenario, add new skills that have some interesting mechanisms. Last time I checked even bosses were using all same lame skills as elite mobs (the spinning arcane thingy, those awkward poison farts, etc). Simply increasing health and damage seems such a cheap attempt at adding difficulty.

And trust me, while I have played D3 for probably less than a month, I have regularly played hearthstone for a year and I can vouch on blizzard devs being completely retarded or simply not giving two shits about anything.

I almost want to quote Jackie Chan (his "what the hell are you guys doing" emote), but that's rude, so I'll just say my thing and shift back to the Anonymity Pool™. The issue between D2 and D3 never was and never will be progression (yes, this includes Median), because both can be played in casual and hardcore way (to my knowledge at least). The real selling point of D2 was customization, which was done on a much cheaper (read: more looks, less content) scale in D3.

Meaning,
A) they heavily narrowed down the pool of stats that can be randomized in D3, compared to D2 (someone mentioned in the previous posts the lack of fantastic oskills) and
B) the skill pool itself is also poorer in D3 in that you don't have a pool of, say, 30 distinctively different skills in D2 opposed to 10 skills in D3 with 4 or 5 modifications each (I don't recall the exact number) roughly giving you 50 "different" skills to pick from on paper, but in reality, you still have those same 10 skills from the start, they just do things a little bit different.

To sum it up, D3 is a much poorer D2 (as far as what you can DO with your character) game, masked as a richer, newer, better, faster, stronger D2. i.e. instead of a golden yellow cat, you got a regular brown cat in a yellow sac.

By no means is D3 a crappy game (compared to other crap of it's genre - anyone remember Sacred 3? Ewwwwww.) and it can be entertaining as well. But, despite it massively (ab)using lore of the Diablo franchise, it still lacks variety of content compared to what D2 let you do with your character (the plays, man, the plays!)
Like, seriously. Any D3 fans who want do dispute what I wrote here, you go try build a Meleemancer (or Meleedoctor, I guess) on D3. You can't. Why? Cause the game won't let you. GG. (just carrying a melee weapon doesn't count, he needs to be actually viable in melee combat, like good ol' Meleemancer did - and I'm not even talking about the Median version of the said bastard with a bastard sword)

P.S. If someone actualy DOES make a Meleedoctor on D3 and it's playable, let me know, and I'll give you all of my cookies and potatoes. Hell, I'll give you the internet. And a hat, off the top of my head. And I don't give my hat to ANYONE.

P.S.S If any of the facts or numbers I mentioned are slightly off track, it's because I don't remember them clearly after almost a year of hiatus on both of the games. Was paying attention the changes in the meantime, ofc, but I'm not Skynet. So no bashing on the "you're not 100% accurate with these" type. If you mind, that is.

Marco wrote:
How is scaling HP/dmg so different from all the ubers you've made that are basically "here's a one-shot mechanism - see if you can dodge/cheese it"?

I can explain you why +hp +dmg adds no difficulty to the game. The more damage a monster/mob has, the more survability you need, in order to be efficient in terms of how often you die. Eventually, if monsters "just do more damage" then you "just get more survability", either by getting better gear or sacrificing damage. So eventually you deal less damage and monsters have more health so this simply becomes a bigger and bigger time sink. Simple, huh?

A smarter approach would be focusing on doing trickier AIs. This, for example, is a huge limitation in median, as there is only one 'decently smart' AI, but guess what, it can't even walk. So it isn't really fair to compare what me/laz (single persons) can do with a limited 16 year old engine, compared to an entire dev team of supposedly "professionals" (doubtful) who are working with source code.

There are infinite more ways to add difficulty, you could use the scenario, add new skills that have some interesting mechanisms. Last time I checked even bosses were using all same lame skills as elite mobs (the spinning arcane thingy, those awkward poison farts, etc). Simply increasing health and damage seems such a cheap attempt at adding difficulty.

And trust me, while I have played D3 for probably less than a month, I have regularly played hearthstone for a year and I can vouch on blizzard devs being completely retarded or simply not giving two shits about anything.

That's some good points for sure. But it does serve the purpose of keeping content relevant when there is power creep (SSU and SSSU, anyone :mrgreen:

)

I'm gonna quote some guy from official D3 forums, who basicly nailed it.

"No matter how much you polish one TURD, at the end, you will get basicly the same TURD and stinky hands."

nuff said.

If you want decent(graphic wise) A-RPG other than D2 Median, go for PoE.
I would strongly advise Marco to think about ditching median in form as mod for D2 and go for brand new A-RPG game with the same boss encounters/mechanics and brand new story(since blizzard may sue him). That is what ARPG market craves, since there is almost 0 competition, PoE gets boring after a while.

Modding is infinitely easier (and cheaper) than creating a new arpg from scratch.

Just look at Crate Entertainment- they are working on Grim Dawn, and progress is moving at a snail's pace- and they're a team, AND they have the engine they're using already in place (game uses the same engine as Titan Quest)!

I think it's a stupid idea to tell Marco to "just make his own game", as it shows just how little you know about game design and development in any capacity.

Also, @marco, while freemium games are definitely against a player's best interest, the real issue here is that players continue to support this gaming model. If freemium models didn't work, development companies would abandon them in favor of something that did- survival of the fittest in economics. The problem is that there is no incentive from a financial perspective (which, let's face it, is the bottom line) to create games that use any sort of different development model. Hell, developers are purposely releasing buggy games- often claiming "early access"- just to have players do the bugtesting for them, for free... and what's absurd is players actually love it. In short, I don't think it's the industry, honestly- it's the players. We're supporting these types of unfair, stupid business models companies like EA have adopted, and it's only starting to become truly apparent how crazy it all is (recall the Skyrim "paid modding" fiasco from a while ago). Unfortunately it's only going to get worse before it gets any better.

[edit]
Also, to stay on topic, D3 is actually really great right now, for basically all the reasons iwansquall iterated. I love that I can play it with my girlfriend (Median is far too complex and unforgiving for her), I love that I can sit down for an hour and feel like I've made progress (be it with finishing a few rifts, gaining a few paragon levels, or getting some crafting recipes). While it's certainly too easy, there's a reason they added 10 Torment levels- I can farm reasonably well on Torment 4, I die somewhat regularly on Torment 5, and Torment 6 slooters my people. Kanai's Cube is super cool, and I love that D3 legendaries are finally at a place where many of them do feel unique (legendary affixes are really, really fun). Yes, it's imbalanced at high levels (twinking legendary gems to your level 1 guys, or eliminating the level requirement on your ancient legendaries), but it's FUN. Since there's no real multiplayer aspect anymore (no trading, no AH, instanced loot), it's okay to be a little imbalanced in the name of fun.

And that's what Blizzard has done exceedingly well recently- making games that are accessible and fun. Yes, HotS and D3 and WoW are simply "too easy", but it's hard to argue that they are fun to play (disclaimer: I don't play HotS or WoW). Anybody can jump into them immediately and feel rewarded without feeling penalized later for simply enjoying the game- a huge problem with D2. It's fine to fanboi over D2 (and moreso Median), but discrediting or dismissing games with "zzz too ez" just makes you appear immature and stupid.

[another edit]
@rustmonster: while D3 doesn't let you "build your character however you want", what it does to is reward creativity. My girlfriend is using a few legendaries that synergize really well with the Wizard's Electrocute, along with a bunch of items that have CC modifiers (chance to stun, fear, freeze, etc on hit), and it's really awesome. Okay, you can't make a melee WD, or a melee Wizard, or a ranged Barbarian (and have any success with them, that is), because the game is set up mostly so you can't fuck things up. Sure, it limits player creativity in a somewhat serious way, I won't argue that, but Blizzard must've felt the benefit of not messing up characters outweighs the ability to have absurd, unique builds. To some extent, I agree with both you and Blizzard on this design aspect- I like "weird" builds (like many Median builds), but at the same time, it isn't fun to bork a character because you're unfamiliar with the game (something Median has largely solved with infinite respecs). Blizzard could've probably just implemented an infinite respec feature, but I think the whole idea of the game was simply to make it super accessible and console-friendly, so a lot of niche positive aspects were forgotten or removed (things like oskills, actual procs, skill levels, etc).

@Rustmonster
Finally some constructive post. People still havent post much on why d2 was the best arpg.

People tend to forget that you have around 22 active skills and 19 passive skills excluding the rune in D3 making the argument that old game have more skills is wrong.
The only limited factor in d3 is that you can only have 6 active skill and 4 passive skill slots.
But again, how many skill do you use actively in cLoD at the same time anyway?
I do agree though that because d3 doesnt have skill points system, there arent "maximize point in 1 skill" or skill synergies, thus all players' naked lvl 70 char is the same.
Remember that in old cLoD, it doesnt have WDM build in their spell making it harder to infinite-scaling (like energy doesnt give %spell dmg)

Other things limitation in d3 is "class identity" where most active skills is only suitable that particular class playstyle
Meaning demon hunter = ranged, barbarian = melee and witch doctor = ranged caster / summoner.
That why even with various skill in d3, they all tend to feel the same.
*I read that they are planning to add melee demon hunter set in future patch - focused on fan of knives

Which bring to another point:
Would you rather have varied playstyle but not competitive for highest greater rift / leaderboard?
Just like trying to play melee two hand amazon in median, doable but hardly viable.
The ARPG is always about get fastest kill / farming speed rather than methodical tactic.

Yes, pvp was fun in d2 but it isnt in d3 because infinite-scaling problem which caused each classes have their own OP-ness.
Can you balance pvp in median? Not possible unless you made low-level dueling just like PoE.

tl;dr
1. It is not skill quantity problem but rather limited build diversity / class playstyle problem in d3.
2. Skill variety is good,but it is all viable for uber content / endgame? How do you want to balance that?
3. PvP doesnt work with infinite-scaling. D3 and median have this problem. (and if people want team-pvp, you have MOBA for that)

EDITTED:

I got ninja'd. Will read and reply later ;(

@Borgin, ivansquall: Perhaps I worded my post wrong, but it's not like I want to drop the before-mentioned TURD onto D3. D3 IS fun. Up to a point. It's probably a bit more fun with the latest patches (haven't played it for almost a year). And number of skills available isn't really a problem in itself - it's what you can DO with those skills. Out of one character in D3 you can get, say, 10 different specs (imaginary, incorrect number, but for comparison purposes will do). I ask you, how many different specs can you get out of a cLoD D2 character? And I'm not even talking about viability cause I know a guy that managed to end D2 with a clay golem and that curse that reduces vision. It's stupid, it doesn't work in PVP, but in PVE, for some reason, it's golden. What I'm saying here - in D2, you could have fun (even be stupid while doing it). D3 is somewhat "you can't do things wrong" but at later part of the game, it still punishes if you just play sucky. They made SURE there is nothing in the ecosystem that you can just.. exploit, at certain venues. I know it's an ugly word, exploit, I mean, but.. there is that moment when you figure out a really great combo (beforementioned clay golem and blinding curse for necro, for example), and you do good - not terribly good, but good enough - and just have fun with it. In D3, you don't have that. You just have.. powerspikes. At least, that's the feel I get from the game.

Mind you, this is purely based on subjective feeling, and is not necessarily mean it's same for everyone (or anyone) else. But, I do think that the proportion of "things you can do in D2" vs "things you can do in D3" stands in favor of D2 and I don't think there IS a valid argument that can counter that. Simply put, Blizzard sacrificed a certain amount of versatility to gain on fluidity of the gameplay. Which is ok, and it gives D3 something good to run on.

I don't know. Maybe I'm just that kind of guy that likes to have 1 point in all of his curses on necro, or 1 point in all of his auras on Paladin. Cause you never know when you need them. (All hail +All Skills)
And don't even get me started on Whirlwind Frost Paladin (cLoD edition).

Huh. Maybe I AM that kind of guy. Go figure.

Patch 2.4 changelog:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/1994104 ... -11-6-2015

Seem like quite big "quality of life" changes.

Not sure If gonna play this season though, I planned to play every 3 - 4 seasons to get "wow this is big changes" feeling again.