State of Amazons (a bit long)

[itsme]

One thing that I will say about Javazon (having put almost all of my Sigma time to it so far) is that it lacks scope. I'm happy that it functions as well as it does; it's not a total cripple at everything but AFK farming, and competent enough to solo nearly the whole game with no SUs. But there's little competition for early/mid game gearing as the set is garbage. A huge proportion of my gameplay is just Enfilade spam, which is a bit sad as many other builds can do just as much damage in a far larger area or not have to aim at all.

AFAIK the oskill rework hasn't changed much regarding javelins, so if there were some interesting oskills on rares/crafts it could do a lot to open up gearing possibilities. I think it's still just Maelstrom/Death Shards right now, neither of which do much.

Also - seems kinda odd that 3 out of 8 SU javelins are melee gimmicks. I can understand two of them but can't we try to do something different with Moonfang?

[Marcel]

Bowzon is 100% fine on damage output. Here is a sample even of a crossbow amazon:

07:40 ish for Jungles and k3k, 17:04 for Duncraig

I turned my stream on last night because of someone in discord saying similar things to you about bowzon, specifically with the Athulua's Wrath bow with the fancy orange text, so someone briefly donated their bow so I could show it. That's seen at 30:02 in Duncraig.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/374410046

(please ignore the mic issues)

Unfortunately, a 17:00 duncraig is super slow for endgame gearing. In full mf gear with only Danmaku as SSU (which I could drop without a hitch) hammers take me about 7 min to do all of duncraig. If I put on damage and defensive gear this drops into the 6 min range. This also doesn't slow down with multiple players. I maintain the same speed up to about 5 players and lose approx a min at 8 player. Sadly, the orange text on Athulua's wrath is pretty useless. Even if you specced into balance as well as esctatic frenzy, you still have less than 100k defense...if you don't wear rainbow maiden.

Here's the core issue: elemental damage is capped at 200% sheet value because it does not benefit from dex multiplier. At -100% enemy res they take 200% more damage than tooltip. However, achieving that much all pen is very very difficult, and even when achielved, the bow skills all have hefty WDM penalties (50% on wyrmshot and 60% on barrage). These multipliers makes sense if you assume that these attack are heavily multi-hitting. However, the changes to the screen size mean that I am no longer gaining the same increase in hits per cast as I did in previous versions of Median. Specifically, wyrmshot's travel time and distance is now incredibly slow, but barrage is just plain too short range for most of the endgame content. Physical damage trees, on the other hand, scale off of: stat multipliers (approx 800% for most builds, sometimes more), deadly strike (2x damage), etc. Many of these skills also convert that damage to elemental, and thus still benefit from penetration. Flat added ele is in an awkward spot where it is not scaled by spell damage/energy factor. This information comes from (viewtopic.php?f=40&t=22672) for double checking.

In addition, any build that can't handle fauntz can't really be considered something endgame viable due to the new tiers of endgame levels.

[Marcel]

One thing that I will say about Javazon (having put almost all of my Sigma time to it so far) is that it lacks scope. I'm happy that it functions as well as it does; it's not a total cripple at everything but AFK farming, and competent enough to solo nearly the whole game with no SUs. But there's little competition for early/mid game gearing as the set is garbage. A huge proportion of my gameplay is just Enfilade spam, which is a bit sad as many other builds can do just as much damage in a far larger area or not have to aim at all.

AFAIK the oskill rework hasn't changed much regarding javelins, so if there were some interesting oskills on rares/crafts it could do a lot to open up gearing possibilities. I think it's still just Maelstrom/Death Shards right now, neither of which do much.

Also - seems kinda odd that 3 out of 8 SU javelins are melee gimmicks. I can understand two of them but can't we try to do something different with Moonfang?

This is exactly my feeling on javs as well. It's not awful (hence the meh rating), but it definitely isn't good either. Also agree on the melee procs...why are those there? Ricochet is such a cool skill, I'd really like to see it get some love. Fairy ring is such an uncool skill...please help!

[Marcel]

level 123 here - playing primarily as a Spearzon (SP)

I'd disagree with you regarding Curare for the Spearzon at least - it's typically very easy to Pounce/GH and proc poison, but the inability to find a good amount of -psn res gear definitely hurts (although the change to boss psn duration was nice). Also, the specific change of not losing your gear when you die lets you play a little more risky in some situation, like Duncraig was always a little dicey without very optimal gear, as you would die in a swarm spot and be screwed before. With full Celestial set, you can use 1pt Ecstatic Frenzy and go nuts with Pounce spam in some Uber areas.

With Pounce, GH and Lioness at Smax, I'm clearing Teganze very easily (farming for Ea stones) - tried something different gear wise by adding %TCD MOs on the set armor, flat defense MOs on honorific gloves and emp bands, and points in Balance instead of W&F. Sitting at around 43k defense and most things have a hard time hitting me

I agree that spears are the only place you might take curare, but as you noticed it's just not well supported. Almost any other kind of damage would be better from that skill. In addition, while pounce does apply it, the 60% wdm on it makes curare without serious -poison resist behind it really weak. I tested the full gematra'd serentia's scorn with scales of the serpent, the posion SU ammy and full -poison res gear. It was okay. Technically it oneshot most of the mobs in fauntz other than the harpies...over 5 seconds or so. This is just so underwhelming when I can just kill them far faster with a higher damage pounce. Curare isn't objectively bad, it does add damage. It's just bad compared to almost any other damage ultimate and pales in power level compared to Paragon or Spirit of Vengeance.

[Neyhanis]

Played a bit of javazon this ladder, wasnt convinced even with decent gear. Quite probably didnt take it far enough. If I had to again, I guess I would spec for dual fire/psn pen (titans revenge, gelebs greed, amazon helm with -15 -15, assassin set belt with -15 -15, shield RW for crazy fire dmg/pen or 4xPoison rw for +2block and psn pen) and give it a go. I dont think procs are the way to go, or at least not convinced at all.

For MMzon, since it has great damage i suggest trying out the Eviscerator (+10% base block) sword and just MO +magic/phys dmg on it. You DO lose some damage, and need like 1k dex or so, but you gain a near-free 75% block, giving you a huge survivability (meh def + perf block + HIGH RANGE + SUPERB HP). Definitely makes her tankier.

Currently playing spearzon and enjoying it, lv120, though not tried curare yet (about to). Just started using Arkaine's Valor on my spearzon and with the incredibly high %tcd on spearzon it gives SO MUCH VIT that I feel paragon is not that much needed anymore.
Solid options for weapons are I feel either craft / Titanomachia (Xis) in eth spear / 6x poison rune. (right now ive got a strong craft)
I do feel however very sad about the 6x earth rune recipe for spears. It has amazingly good damage rolls + nice leech for a weapon RW... BUT it doesnt make it indestructible like the regular 6x Earth RW for other weaps. Results in poor damage cause no jewels, no other runes (Jahs), no gems (skulls + paragon), and most of all NO ETH WEAPON. Any decent craft will equal or outdo it sadly. 6x Poison rune suffers from the same fate but has 60% psn pierce and good psn base, its for curare so its alright if the base phys is not super competitive, and even so its decent.
I guess a full-poison oriented build with segnitia would work, but unsure about how efficient that would be. To be tested I guess. Please give me your input regarding this (curare or not, and which weapon to use ? ), hesitating a lot right now
edit : I forgot to mention, since I dont use curare yet, im playing fulltime GH. No leech, very poor farming, but amazing damage at least. Will probably change once I use pounce

[Zennith]

Currently playing javazon, it did more damage at level 100 than my totem-necro at 119. Still does level 120 on each.

That's my damage on a single hit, I hit 16 times. I like Javazon this patch. This is also geared for Dex% and flat dex. Haven't even built for damage yet.

[Marcel]

Currently playing javazon, it did more damage at level 100 than my totem-necro at 119. Still does level 120 on each.

Sadly ricochet hits each target once, and at a 60% of that number (60% wdm) it's very hard to directly compare damage, just see how it feels.

Also, if anyone wants to see a duncraig run in full MF gear dropping almost all damage, here is a typical clear (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6XcotdhZHU).

[Zennith]

Currently playing javazon, it did more damage at level 100 than my totem-necro at 119. Still does level 120 on each.

Sadly ricochet hits each target once, and at a 60% of that number (60% wdm) it's very hard to directly compare damage, just see how it feels.

Also, if anyone wants to see a duncraig run in full MF gear dropping almost all damage, here is a typical clear (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6XcotdhZHU).

Never used ricochet once. Started with Icebird TU > Kra RW for shitty maelstrom > then moved up to big boi maelstrom.

[Marcel]

Never used ricochet once. Started with Icebird TU > Kra RW for shitty maelstrom > then moved up to big boi maelstrom.

Sounds cool. I'll try it out. Did you roll maelstrom on javs? There don't seem to be any SUs with it.

[suchbalance]

I recorded this dunc clear a few weeks ago in beta while goofing around on my endgame bow zon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrNJTXjlgwE

Character no longer exists due to incompatibility, but it shows damage & sustain potential.