Amazon Class Structure Topic / Fire Elemental Hate Thread

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Primarch
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Amazon Class Structure Critique:

I just wanted to address a few zon skills and the class makeup as a whole.
(Disclaimer: I have tested each build with multiple gear setups and was only able to complete Very Hard/Extreme uber bosses with the Bowazon.)

First, I'd like to address the exclusionary nature of the zon skill trees.

One thing I find very limiting about Amazons is that you are forced to choose one dedicated skill set that automatically mutes all other choices (i.e. bow, thunder, spear, javelin, blood) with virtually zero overlap. This makes build versatility (of the Neutraldin variety) non-existent, not that the individual trees would synergize that well with each other, regardless (mostly due to the lack of quality passives).

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Regarding Individual Trees:

Javelin: low survivability, low damage, can't handle any serious ubers. Slower at farming than Thunder/Pounce. Not really "good" at any one thing.

Spear: Great mobility. Can tank hordes decently and can farm most zones with end-game gear but damage is low and gets buttfucked by pretty much every moderately difficult uber boss so don't even attempt single-target. Also, low hp since it relies on Curare and paragon is off the table. No dodge or block so your TCD doesn't really have a buffer. The thin veneer of tankiness.

Blood: Decent damage but the balancing act is super clunky and the survivability just isn't where you'd expect it to be with 25k hp, especially given the lack of DEX/armor. Also, damage can't really compete with most other class end-game builds so this is really only for people who want to try something different and don't mind being gimped.

Thunder: Hammerzons are fun and the 150% WDM is high but the hammerdin playstyle seems a little weak in the fast-paced Median XL world and is only really effective in open farming zones. Also, the FCR breakpoint requirement clashes with the WDM nature of the build and really serves as more of an annoyance, often trading FBR/FHR or Life steal for Cast rate, gimping your build. Thundercrack gets absolutely laughed at by multi-hitting skills like stormblast(No, I'm not mentioning this because of the 15s Samael video so please don't yell at me), not even worth using. Can't do the more difficult Ubers, even with magnetic field spam (unless you have absurd gear). Other than that, I don't want to talk too much trash about Thunder because I like the direction this build was given in Sigma and hope to see it tweaked/improved in the future. (Maybe give it a powerful multi-hitting skill like Stormblast and some more survivability instead of limp-dick Thundercrack).

Bowazon: What can be said? The only viable Uber-build that Amazons have. Fun to play but mainly because its a Total glass-cannon. Expect to die a lot. Despite being paper-thin, the damage is still marginally lower than a Bow Druid/X-bow Nec with comparable gear and has less survivability. (I haven't played a Sin this patch so I can't speak on the rumors I've heard.)

Each of these builds would be far more viable if they had a second passive in each specialization tree rather than 1-2 useless skills that never get used (i.e. sunstrike).

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Uber skills:

Curare: Good DoT but you have to give up Paragon so you're sitting at like 12-15k hp in end-game gear with no dodge/avoidance passives or item choices (enjoy dying). Overall, I'd much rather have a skill like Dragonknight.

Paragon: Good life bonus but you're still only sitting at around 18-19k life in peak gear, you lack the survivability of most other classes and you're forced to give up LL jewels so, while you might get instagibbed less, you can't really keep your HP up without sacrificing BiS gear pieces to pick up the slack.

Spirit of Vengeance: The only sensible choice for Blood tree but blood tree is also the only reason you'd use SoV. Paragon being the only alternative.

Ennead Skill: Spellbind: Perhaps I'm biased but I absolutely hate this skill. On such a squishy character, aiming and timing spellbind is really annoying as you're frantically trying to run away while spamming barrage/Wyvern. Also, the animation is super ugly. BelongsInAFlashGame.jpg

Black Road Skill (War Spirit): super weak, damage-wise. The incremental nova is far too infrequent (bring back javelin spam but with smaller projectiles plz <3). With CB nerf, its absolutely useless on ubers. Hell, its so sub-par, you went ahead and slapped it right on Rogue's fortune gloves for the lols.

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Now, for the most important part of this critique: The absolutely cucked passive Devotion tree.

Devotion Tree:

1) Wild and Free: Passive effect: increases run speed and hit recovery (capped at 99, Oh joy!) That isn't to say MS/FHR aren't valuable but its a rather unremarkable 1-point wonder in a tree that desperately needs redemption.

2) >>>>>>>>>>>>>Fire Elemental<<<<<<<<<<<<<<: A total meme. I'm trying to figure out why Amazons would even have this skill to begin with. Rather than giving them a much-needed Dodge/DS passive(which would make much more sense from a lore/balance standpoint) or something else to boost their survivability/sub-par damage, they get little red butt-plugs floating around with no viable summoning-build to boost them past obsolescence that serve only to mock you. Even their CTC fire cascade on death is terrible.. They only make for a mediocre meatshield while leveling in early-mid game and fall off steadily as you begin your first ubers.

3) Balance: Makes for about 33k base defense with end-game gear. Not terrible but only really shines with Lioness TCD boost and, at that point, you're already past 1 million defense so the extra 300-400k isn't really that necessary. Having to max this skill in order to make good use of it makes this almost a nuisance.

4) Ecstatic Frenzy: Effect: caster gains attack speed and damage at the cost of defense. Low magic damage. Goodbye defense (lol). Only really usable on Bowazon, which turns a glass-cannon into a giant glass fleshlight.

5) Defensive Harmony: Passive effect: slows enemies that attempt to attack you. Okay, I guess. The slow is nice but is often overshadowed by slow target mods. The uninterruptible attack is cool. Can't talk too much shit about DH.

Finally, the Physical Damage Reduction, which most other classes receive, is virtually non-existent. Zons are forced to come up with 50% DR from items alone. When you're already doing your best to balance LL, FCR, FBR, and FHR, this just adds another layer to annoying itemization.
Edited by Primarch 2 years.
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Primarch
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*Less important topic I thought I'd mention* As for every skill tree (besides Blood) being item-specific, its very limiting to only have 1-2 viable weapon choices per build. Looking at other classes like Barbs/Paladins, who have access to both weapon-specific and non-weapon specific WDM skills, Amazons just seem like a weaker and more niche alternative with far less variety. Yes, I will concede that Sins/Necros/Melee Sorceresses also suffer from this limitation, but I'd love for each class to have 1-2 viable non-weapon-specific WDM skills to add a little flavor to the itemization/play-style.
Edited by Primarch 2 years.
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HechtHeftig
I paid 10$ for this.
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You could‘ve still put this in the sigma bugs & feedback thread.
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Primarch
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HechtHeftig wrote:You could‘ve still put this in the sigma bugs & feedback thread.


I'll make sure to do so.
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Im_a_ninja
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I run a poison focus pouncer, and the spellbind synergy to elemtal is great. 30 k life summons easy.. helps in certain areas
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Shinobi
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This is sweet! I thought i was the only one feeling bad about the Zons having weak passives.
If this is balanced it would be wonderful! I love Zons and Barbs and play so often since Vannila DII
May the Dev Gods of Median Sigma hear my prayers! :cry:
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Primarch
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Shinobi wrote:This is sweet! I thought i was the only one feeling bad about the Zons having weak passives.
If this is balanced it would be wonderful! I love Zons and Barbs and play so often since Vannila DII
May the Dev Gods of Median Sigma hear my prayers! :cry:


Amen
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PindlskinVova
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Stop spamming the same thing in several topics. Amazon is more than playable. In sigma all main branches have improved. It all comes down to the fact that you need hyper-improvement. After all, she is not a barb or a paladin. Each class has weak skills. She has the most attainable cap DR -by TU items - 10% by Spangenhelm,10% by Setzschild, 5-6% by Armor, if you use Maiden Pike that +15%. So high armor(i think biggest among all classes if u use scepetr - 130-150k easy on normal with t3-t4). If u use blood - high hp. Fire elems best low lvl summons in game, with potential in late.
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PindlskinVova wrote:Stop spamming the same thing in several topics. Amazon is more than playable. In sigma all main branches have improved. It all comes down to the fact that you need hyper-improvement. After all, she is not a barb or a paladin. Each class has weak skills. She has the most attainable cap DR -by TU items - 10% by Spangenhelm,10% by Setzschild, 5-6% by Armor, if you use Maiden Pike that +15%. So high armor(i think biggest among all classes if u use scepetr - 130-150k easy on normal with t3-t4). If u use blood - high hp. Fire elems best low lvl summons in game, with potential in late.


Early game is far removed from late game. My entire point is that ****late game*** zons struggle to compete. The fact that you reference TU’s is laughable. It’s abundantly clear that you never progressed past mid-game and somehow feel justified in critiquing the opinion of someone who has. You can observe the issue I address in the season statistics. Plenty of zons make it to 120+ but that number dwindles as they struggle to reach 140. I simply addressed some of the reasons why.

Also, don’t pretend like I’m somehow bothering you by voicing my opinion. You just want meaningless forum clout for shouting down any dissenting viewpoint.
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PindlskinVova
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Early game is far removed from late game. My entire point is that ****late game*** zons struggle to compete. The fact that you reference TU’s is laughable. It’s abundantly clear that you never progressed past mid-game and somehow feel justified in critiquing the opinion of someone who has. You can observe the issue I address in the season statistics. Plenty of zons make it to 120+ but that number dwindles as they struggle to reach 140. I simply addressed some of the reasons why.

Also, don’t pretend like I’m somehow bothering you by voicing my opinion. You just want meaningless forum clout for shouting down any dissenting viewpoint.


All the flashing whining and the flow of topics about class comparisons appeared after the video with barb. But there was a combination of bugs and direct player hands. Statistics does not speak about anything, because it is multifactorial and you interpret it one-sidedly. In any class, the number of players in the transition 120-140 decreases. You do not provide any data on your builds / attempts. While your dissatisfaction is unfounded, this is just another opinion. You just want a boost for your favorite class.