Complaints and Grievances

Discuss Median XL!
boingotango
Cultist
23 | 0
So, I'm generally a whiner and a complainer, but there are two changes that I really feel should be made that I think would just objectively make things more fun. In fact, they were two things that were previously in the mod that I am completely baffled were changed:

Respecs on Command
I really don't understand this. This is a mod that has somewhat limited information, lots of viable builds, and tons of things to try. It fit the mod a lot better to be able to easily respec your character so you could try things. The old recipe was
Oil of Absolution (bought from vendor) + rune → Belladonna Elixir

Sure I could spend hours mindlessly grinding low level mobs until I get this rare drop to be able to make my character playable again after a mishap (hell, sometimes I just click the wrong fucking skill), but why? Is it to facilitate the trade economy? Is it just to add more 'gameplay'? It really was one of my favorite things about the mod, and it had been something I had wanted since playing original Diablo II.

Removal of Required Level for Zones
Again, just totally baffled by this, as previously you were encouraged to do things as low level as possible (Remember all the level challenges?). Possibly this was meant to conform with the increased (or removed not sure which) level cap, but it's really just annoying. Yes, you can go on about how "It's not hard to level bro. git gud", but it just ends up making us farm zones with little to no reward other than xp to level our character. We should be able to farm zones as soon as we have the ability, not as soon as we hit some arbitrary required level. Besides, it was really cool to be able to go try zones you have no business in to see what kind of bullshit you can pull off. I'd love to be able to start farming Kurast 3000 at like level 100 for great XP and good loot, as opposed to having to level in places I have little to no chance of getting anything decent.
I have heard some people say this makes things easier for new players, so that they know where they should be going (doesn't really make sense to me, but okay?) Maybe you could just list a Recommended level on the portal?


I really love this mod, and am really excited that it is still being developed to this day. Another complaint of mine, is no infinite or shared stash, but I've heard this is supposed to be in the works. That would really make me both moist and erect.


Anyway, I guess post your own Complaints and Grievances and general changes you wish to be made here?

I didn't see any other thread or section for this kind of stuff and felt it should be on this forum. I know MarcoNecro is going to do what he wants at the end of the day, and I don't think he owes us anything, but nothing wrong with getting Player feedback on what they would like to see.
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Deathbringer
Stygian Watcher
40 | -1
I really agree on level gates removal, they sometimes simply artificially stop you from making progress and force you to farm XP with, just like you said little to no reward.

Additionally, level requirements on SOME of the charms are also not really understandable, like you already earned your charm and have done the challenge, why not simplify the leveling of another character by either reducing or removing the level requirement on some of them? For example all charms that give attributes should have their level req reduced so you don't have to waste belladonnas/akara respecs 9/10 of the times you create a dex/str oriented character and reach hell difficulty because you will kill some of the ubers/take charms from another toon and have to respec because hey you don't need that str/dex for equipping gear anymore.

I would just like to point out that before sigma some of the charms actually had lower requirements, starting from butcher charm having lvl req of 60 and I don't honestly know why was it changed. It was a QoL for making multiple characters so you won't suffer that much during leveling period, not mentioning how easy it was to hit 120 before sigma. Now it has taken a 180 degree turn and is much more miserable unfortunately with charms bonuses affecting you much later/xp reduced. Hopefully bounties will change the pace of the game in endgame, fingers crossed for that :).

That's just my 2 cents, I'm wondering how other players feel about those aspects of the game. Other than that it's the best diablo mod out there, keep up the good work MXL devs
Kurne
Cultist
24 | 2
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Donated 1 time
Shared stash ftw! Maybe quest reward overhaul for the vanilla quests? Maybe a long term goal of being able to pick the skills the merc gets similar to diablo 3? More superuniques early game! Like actually challenging superuniques with solid rewards o_o (looking at you iceclaw boss before diablo >_>...)... Spearazon overhaul for bugged health orbs ability!!! Bounties FTW!!
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Marco
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These things have been mentioned/commented so often at this point, that I'd just be repeating myself. So i'll be super short this time. There's at least a few more topics about this if you want to check for a more elaborated response.

Respec:
- tl;dr free respec is harmful to progression. To a degree it promotes build promiscuity as people just give up too quick, especially new ones. If you're failing on a build (because you're new and turns out there's quite a lot to learn/understand), I can almost guarantee respec will not yield a result for the time invested compared to staying with your current build (and gear you already have).
- on a more macro level, free respec just allows you to get away with build juggling & abusing certain stat combos to get ahead in dungeons really quick. We want to reward players who stick to a plan and character, this is a much better foundation to balance the game around than free respec, which is upredictable and cheesy by nature.
- mistakes & boredom do happen, so respecs are still quite available & cheap if you need them. Lots of people do the mistake of farming 100 zones for respec when the chance increases with alvl. So they get the wrong picture on their rarity, they drop quite often from dunc onwards.

Level requirements on zones
- there is a similar argument here to the previous one. A lot of the very endgame ubers (void, laz) require really specific gear, a lot of times gear which you can reliably do yourself quickly. The issue? the most "efficient" way to beat the game is turning progression upside down, selling laz/void charms on first day, making bank, then reinvesting into farm gear and you're set.
- lets just do a quick comparision of progression vs M12. In m12, an optimal way to progress, if season is 5h old, you prob start with a tcow, lets say assassin. Then you wychwind-cheese all summoning quests (was literally doable with t1 magic knife). Then you have leverage to beat a decent amount of dungeons. Finally u are able to do laz/void for example, within same day still. At this point there's a big market of people who want to buy all charms (because they are also lvl unrestricted and 120 was free). Surely feels great to outplay everyone who played normally, but is this the way of playing that should be rewarded the most?
- current progression, you actually can struggle against mid/low tier bosses and need to figure them out rather than just picking charm up, each new bracket is balanced to be beatable with the previous charms, much better streamlined than before. I'm not saying it's quite there yet, sigma was a very experimental patch so there's still a room for improvement. But I think we're on a much better direction now.
- as far as the "exp gating artificially forces you to farm" I dont think is true at all, at least pre-125 where exp yield starts getting low. How many people/builds can complete the 120 bracket *as soon* as they are 120? So in a good amount of cases, its not like you could even beat the zone if it was unlocked before. If anyone thinks exping to 120 takes too long it probably means your killspeed is fairly bad and you could really use some farming/upgrades to prepare for what's ahead. I also disagree with zones being unrewarding, you start rifting at 110 at which point TJungles is fairly rewarding to farm, those gold sigs do some work and the rate of sigs/exp isn't bad. That point onwards k3k is super rewarding (up to the point people want to farm it post 120+), same goes for dunc, fauzt.



One last thing, the "objectively more fun" argument doesnt really do much. Not only because fun can be different for other players, but because short-term fun doesnt necessarily equal long-term. Simple example, let's say we add a recipe to make any SU for free, surely everyone would be having lots of fun making their dream builds. So do we just go forward with all "fun" ideas? There's many layers to all changes, and lots of things to consider. We thorougly discuss any ideas and balance out the pros & cons, as well as community acceptance. It's not like we weren't fully concious that topics such as exp/respecs/lockdowns/no plugy/running would receive a certain amount of backlash, but they were all necessary changes discussed over months and we fully believe in them. But you'll need a decent amount of patience because we're a small team, with a lot on our plate, so much more than just modding (docs, launcher, support, armory, community, translations, tg center, list goes on) so we do the best we can.


Anyway i failed myserably as usual to keep this short. As long as feedback is presented politely and not rushed by emotions, we are always happy to listen.
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SwineFlu
Core Lord
357 | 34
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Since Marco in the mood to practice his political speech skills, would be interesting to hear some plausible explanation what takes team so long to embed in the core something as simple as multipage stash. PVPGN support is out of the question obviously, there in no open source projects with such functionality, however it's worth a few dozen lines of code to make it work for a single player or tcp/ip game. Half a year is definitely more than enough to copy&paste an existing code that was tested for years by thousands and thousands of players, can't go wrong with it.
tempmail
Pit Knight
119 | -4
Marco wrote:These things have been mentioned/commented so often at this point, that I'd just be repeating myself. So i'll be super short this time. There's at least a few more topics about this if you want to check for a more elaborated response.

Respec:
- tl;dr free respec is harmful to progression. To a degree it promotes build promiscuity as people just give up too quick, especially new ones. If you're failing on a build (because you're new and turns out there's quite a lot to learn/understand), I can almost guarantee respec will not yield a result for the time invested compared to staying with your current build (and gear you already have).
- on a more macro level, free respec just allows you to get away with build juggling & abusing certain stat combos to get ahead in dungeons really quick. We want to reward players who stick to a plan and character, this is a much better foundation to balance the game around than free respec, which is upredictable and cheesy by nature.
- mistakes & boredom do happen, so respecs are still quite available & cheap if you need them. Lots of people do the mistake of farming 100 zones for respec when the chance increases with alvl. So they get the wrong picture on their rarity, they drop quite often from dunc onwards.

Level requirements on zones
- there is a similar argument here to the previous one. A lot of the very endgame ubers (void, laz) require really specific gear, a lot of times gear which you can reliably do yourself quickly. The issue? the most "efficient" way to beat the game is turning progression upside down, selling laz/void charms on first day, making bank, then reinvesting into farm gear and you're set.
- lets just do a quick comparision of progression vs M12. In m12, an optimal way to progress, if season is 5h old, you prob start with a tcow, lets say assassin. Then you wychwind-cheese all summoning quests (was literally doable with t1 magic knife). Then you have leverage to beat a decent amount of dungeons. Finally u are able to do laz/void for example, within same day still. At this point there's a big market of people who want to buy all charms (because they are also lvl unrestricted and 120 was free). Surely feels great to outplay everyone who played normally, but is this the way of playing that should be rewarded the most?
- current progression, you actually can struggle against mid/low tier bosses and need to figure them out rather than just picking charm up, each new bracket is balanced to be beatable with the previous charms, much better streamlined than before. I'm not saying it's quite there yet, sigma was a very experimental patch so there's still a room for improvement. But I think we're on a much better direction now.
- as far as the "exp gating artificially forces you to farm" I dont think is true at all, at least pre-125 where exp yield starts getting low. How many people/builds can complete the 120 bracket *as soon* as they are 120? So in a good amount of cases, its not like you could even beat the zone if it was unlocked before. If anyone thinks exping to 120 takes too long it probably means your killspeed is fairly bad and you could really use some farming/upgrades to prepare for what's ahead. I also disagree with zones being unrewarding, you start rifting at 110 at which point TJungles is fairly rewarding to farm, those gold sigs do some work and the rate of sigs/exp isn't bad. That point onwards k3k is super rewarding (up to the point people want to farm it post 120+), same goes for dunc, fauzt.



One last thing, the "objectively more fun" argument doesnt really do much. Not only because fun can be different for other players, but because short-term fun doesnt necessarily equal long-term. Simple example, let's say we add a recipe to make any SU for free, surely everyone would be having lots of fun making their dream builds. So do we just go forward with all "fun" ideas? There's many layers to all changes, and lots of things to consider. We thorougly discuss any ideas and balance out the pros & cons, as well as community acceptance. It's not like we weren't fully concious that topics such as exp/respecs/lockdowns/no plugy/running would receive a certain amount of backlash, but they were all necessary changes discussed over months and we fully believe in them. But you'll need a decent amount of patience because we're a small team, with a lot on our plate, so much more than just modding (docs, launcher, support, armory, community, translations, tg center, list goes on) so we do the best we can.


Anyway i failed myserably as usual to keep this short. As long as feedback is presented politely and not rushed by emotions, we are always happy to listen.


In terms of level requirements, so the main reason for level requirements is multiplayer. So could you remove the level requirements in single player and keep them for multiplayer? That way people would not be making bank selling stuff on multiplayer and people in single player would have more fun playing the game.
Kurne
Cultist
24 | 2
Common Supporter Badge
Donated 1 time
My ideas were glossed over. I'm never gonna get any of them implemented am i? :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
Ywinel
Rust Claw
85 | 2
I About lvl requirements - gosh, W T F?! JUST FEW RUNS and you get another 5 lvls. Up to 125 it's almost 1 level per rift run, a bit lower for 125-130. And later? - you need more only for Samael ... Me this season: wanted to farm XIS, 6-7 runs (3 hours?...) and I've reached 125 by the way (with barely started 120 charms :v). I'm usually reaching 117-119 just by looking for better rolls of easy/medium charms.
Honestly, thanks to lvl req new people finally stopped going in areas they shouldn't be in and are aware were should go at current state of progress. It's better this way, mod finally doesn't discourage new player.
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lazyknob
Azure Drake
175 | 6
Higher level zones usually involve longer clear times as you deal less damage to mobs generally. Or perhaps playing some FOTM class which lets you reasonably struggle. Or bought up the auction house when you hit 100. Otherwise... it's just inefficient to go to an area where you're underleveled or undergeared to be in.

Perhaps the real reason is being unable to tag along with other players to be carried in higher leveled areas. It'd be utterly pointless for other players to carry in a sub 120 area where loot potential is just ... not as good.

Otherwise taking the stated 'complaints' at face value, it just feels like arm flailing than anything serious enough to have a look at.
Istaryu
Onyx Knight
618 | -3
Common Guide Badge
Created a complete character guide
SwineFlu wrote:Since Marco in the mood to practice his political speech skills, would be interesting to hear some plausible explanation what takes team so long to embed in the core something as simple as multipage stash. PVPGN support is out of the question obviously, there in no open source projects with such functionality, however it's worth a few dozen lines of code to make it work for a single player or tcp/ip game. Half a year is definitely more than enough to copy&paste an existing code that was tested for years by thousands and thousands of players, can't go wrong with it.


I dont think it is that simple.