Does every skill in MXL really has to be completely new?

[Crash]

it sounds like you just want to play vanilla d2, honestly. the game still exists if you want to do that. the idea is to create unique skills. corpse explosion exists, but as its own unique skill in shatter the flesh. bone spear exists in boneyard, but a unique concept (also voidstar, but different damage type and combines a stationary turret).

windform isn't whirlwind. whirlwind is whirlwind. Just cause something looks the same doesn't mean it is.

[Pub]

This might be a controversial topic, but my question is why every single skill in the skill tree needs to be one that is completely new? Because there are certainly some really amazing, fun and iconic skills from D2 that in my opinion could be placed in the skill tree of MXL without hurting the mod at all and even improve it if that would be done.

A few examples:
[i]* Corpse Explosion
* Bone Spear
* Bone Spirit
* Strafe

Immediately stopped reading after that last awful skill recommendation.

What's wrong with strafe?

Whats wrong with a default attack with a little more WDM modifier and faster attacks? Its very boring and doesnt fit into mxls flashyness and explosiveness, despite theyve toned it down in the recent patches.

I personally would prefer my skill pools be seperate that way my experience with playing clod and sigma are much better when i keep changing between the two.

What if it also shoots exploding fire or frost arrows instead of normal arrows?
Would that be flashy enough?

In my opinion no. It doesnt make up for its clunkyness, but you may think its the coolest thing. No one is right or wrong here at the end of the day and to each their own.

[Jampula]

it sounds like you just want to play vanilla d2, honestly. the game still exists if you want to do that. the idea is to create unique skills. corpse explosion exists, but as its own unique skill in shatter the flesh. bone spear exists in boneyard, but a unique concept (also voidstar, but different damage type and combines a stationary turret).

windform isn't whirlwind. whirlwind is whirlwind. Just cause something looks the same doesn't mean it is.

I understand he wants some old skills back with new gimmicks, that's the difference.

And Windform is Whirlwind, as is Spin to Win. Adding some poison dmg and los doesn't make it unique. Well Sigma did when it enabled on attack with ww.

[Anonymous:]

In worst scenario add them as oskills in some "cLod Nostalgy" set. Otherwise - no. There are plenty option where mods have those skills and median is median, known for complete rework of skills which is great.

[clueso]

windform isn't whirlwind. whirlwind is whirlwind. Just cause something looks the same doesn't mean it is.

So if the Valkyrie gets a chain lightning attack and another name, if Thunderstorm would now also detonate in Charged Bolts and be called Tempest for example, or if Shield Bash would now also add magic damage per level, etc, etc, you would be fine with all of these skills being added to MXL, I assume, right?

it sounds like you just want to play vanilla d2, honestly. the game still exists if you want to do that.

I hear the exact same argument from people who defend Diablo 3 when I say that a lot of things were better in D2.

"Hey, it sounds like you just want to play D2 then, so why don't you just go back playing D2?!"...
... which honestly is not really a good argument.

[Threads]

why isn't it a good argument?

Diablo 3 is not Diablo 2. you do not want to play Diablo 3 because it is worse than Diablo 2.

go play Diablo 2 (MXL/Vanilla/Path/Sun), Path of Exile, or Grim Dawn if you don't want to play Diablo 3

[clueso]

why isn't it a good argument?

Diablo 3 is not Diablo 2. you do not want to play Diablo 3 because it is worse than Diablo 2.

go play Diablo 2 (MXL/Vanilla/Path/Sun), Path of Exile, or Grim Dawn if you don't want to play Diablo 3

In that context the argument was whether or not to have things from D2 brought over to D3 (like an attribute system or its itemization system).


You see, "D3 is not D2, and if you don't like that, go play D2" is not a good argument for not having an attribute system in D3 or not having an itemization that is more like D2's in D3.

If the argument would have been: "You see, D2's attribute system is bad because of this and that reason and D2's itemization is worse than D3's because of reason x, y and z and that is why we should not bring it over to D3", it would have been a much better argument, but saying "Go play another game if you don't like this" is not a good argument.

[Crash]

I mean.. median is intentionally creating their own content based on packages and existing artwork that fits into the diablo 2 world and style.

I would assume you've never used Tempest, because it's not tied to Thunderstorm or Charged Bolt at all. It actually uses the Lightning mechanic, but was altered in a way to add targets, targeting, etc. The team and MXL overall creates content based on what is available to them. Even the "copy paste" skills from vanilla like Whirlwind has transformed into more of a mobility skill with added poison damage and life on striking vs just being "here's some physical damage in a spinning form".

Other vanilla skills have been added back like Frozen Orb on the new sorc set, but it has perks and incentives, like combination with Force Blast or something for increased spell damage, removing the awkward cooldown between casts, but at the penalty of high mana cost. Sure, vanilla skill exist in these ways, but they're altered to fit the theme of what Median is. And like Anonymous said, rightfully placed as an oskill or set bonus, not part of the character skill trees.

Right now, your argument against our arguments is "why can't mxl be vanilla d2? I don't want to play vanilla d2, I just want to play vanilla d2 in mxl"

tl;dr median makes its own content. copy pasting too much of vanilla d2 is bad for what the mod is/has become.

[clueso]

I would assume you've never used Tempest, because it's not tied to Thunderstorm or Charged Bolt at all. It actually uses the Lightning mechanic, but was altered in a way to add targets, targeting, etc.

My argument had nothing to do with the sorc skill Tempest that you mentioned which is currently in MXL.

It was an example, a template to illustrate my point that if you slightly rework how the classic LoD skill Thunderstorm works, bring it over to MXL and give it another name, for example "Tempest" or whatever (I literally said that in the post that it was just an example), you would be okay with that according to what you yourself where saying.

Right now, your argument against our arguments is "why can't mxl be vanilla d2? I don't want to play vanilla d2, I just want to play vanilla d2 in mxl"

This is a very shallow and simplistic (mis-)representation of what I was actually saying and if we approach your arguments in that same spirit, than your arguments against mine boil down to "if you don't like it, go back to play D2 classic".

Sure, vanilla skill exist in these ways, but they're altered to fit the theme of what Median is.

I would be absolutely fine with giving these skills a small twist (e.g. Blizzard without cooldown and on the Druid instead of the sorc, or Valkyrie with a chain lightning attack), the question is why you wouldn't, because according to what you are saying, you would not want to have these in MXL at all, even if there would be a small twist on them.

And like Anonymous said, rightfully placed as an oskill or set bonus, not part of the character skill trees.

Windform, Angel, of Death, Druid Shapeshifting Forms, Dragon Wyrrns, Iron Golem, that Multishot skill that was on the Amazon until last patch, Resurrection, ... all classic skills that are still in the skill trees of MXL with slight twists, so why not some other classic skills as well and give them a small twist, especially when some of these old skills are much more fun to use and interesting than some of the skills that are currently in the mod?


The answer to that can't seriously be "if you don't like it, go back to d2" and also the absolutist position of "because median is a 100% conversion mod and that is what it is" is not appropriate.

tl;dr median makes its own content. copy pasting too much of vanilla d2 is bad for what the mod is/has become.

I agree that the skills can and should be given an unique twist, so it would't be a simple copy-paste.

And even if it would just be a copy paste, the real question is: "Would it make the overall mod better or not to re-introduce some of the old skills (with a few twists if it has to be) into the game?"

For me the answer is definitely: "Yes".

[Conquest]

Many MXL skills are based on Classic skills either way. Hammer of Zeare ffs! That's a hammerdin. That's a friggin hammerdin for god's sake. Just without enigma and doesn't just ignore any resists or immunities (as there weren't any magic immunes in classic LOD, getting magic resist on player gear wasn't easy either)

Necromancers used to have Massacre as their level 1 melee (basically Zeal)
Angel of Death is basically Leap Attack that does poison damage on a scored hit. Pathetic skill btw. Huge dmg on paper, seems to never hit in practice.
Shatter the Flesh - duh, this is corpse explosion that does frost damage and scales off your spell stats instead of mob HP
Iron Golem is...Iron Golem. Classic CLOD skill that's quite horrible, as you can easily lose the golem by straying too far away from it.
Werewolf morph was brought back and looks so much better than the other two (which are far too bulky to look good as a player character)

I could go on but what is the point anyway. Classic is Classic, there would be no Median XL without it. Is Median XL better than Classic? Heck no it's not. Modders did a lot of work on this, but it all shaped up from Classic. It's still Diablo II LOD at it's heart.