Stat Scaling Imbalance That Should Be Adressed

[morphed]

Also you are comparing a one handed sword to two handed sword, and they are both strength. Good argument.

I think what he means is not a comparison between 1h and 2h str based weapon. But the fact that str weapon has a '2h mode' that almost doubles its dmg , make 'str based weapons' more efficient than dext based if using 2h. Because there is no 2h dext based weapons with double dmg.

thx

[SpamBomb]

Also you are comparing a one handed sword to two handed sword, and they are both strength. Good argument.

I think what he means is not a comparison between 1h and 2h str based weapon. But the fact that str weapon has a '2h mode' that almost doubles its dmg , make 'str based weapons' more efficient than dext based if using 2h. Because there is no 2h dext based weapons with double dmg.

Bows?

[suchbalance]

It's not just about the EWD scaling. Str bases have better base physical damage. Strength weapon SUs in general also have more physical damage, and the highest min/max flat physical damage affix rolls only spawn on str bases.

In fact, as far as melee goes, block really isn't an argument in favour of dex, because there are no currently utilised generic melee dex weapons among popular builds. E.g. no Spear/Javelin non-class melee builds. Also there are many items that give additional EWD/str (e.g. UMO) and none for dex. Most strength builds (especially melee) also have much better single target skills by design - e.g. just compare DJ/Rend/Carnage against Fusillade or Noctule.

I definitely want to make str requirements more relevant again, so that str builds have an additional upside, but just think of the tears if every non-str build had to put 100-200 pts in strength to equip anything above light plate for instance. It's exactly the same as how "pure str" builds refuse to spare 100-200pts in dex endgame to fix their AR. After the latest patch with all the flat AR on jewels/tree power creep I think the situation is fine, especially for melee.

[Glamdring26]

Also you are comparing a one handed sword to two handed sword, and they are both strength. Good argument.

I think what he means is not a comparison between 1h and 2h str based weapon. But the fact that str weapon has a '2h mode' that almost doubles its dmg , make 'str based weapons' more efficient than dext based if using 2h. Because there is no 2h dext based weapons with double dmg.

There is no dex based weapons with double damage? Does naginatas, amazon bows, amazon spears, normal spears doesnt count? They all have %25 dex to damage, and has a lot of damage as well, naginata being highest damage base in the game.

If we compare them:

STR Great Sword: 80 damage, 15 wsm %26 str
STR Giant Axe: 92 damage, 25 wsm %26 str
STR Hand of God: 105 damage, 30 wsm %26 str
DEX Maiden Pike: 73 damage, 20 wsm %25 dex
DEX Naginata: 111 damage, 10 wsm %25 dex

Most dex builds doesnt use 2 handers, and they dont seem to have much difference. Maiden pike has a bit less damage, naginata has a bit more.

If we compare 1 handers:

STR Long Sword: 47 damage, -10 wsm %18 str
STR War Axe: 51 damage, 0 wsm %18 str
DEX Blade: 41 damage, -20 wsm %17 dex
DEX Blade Talons: 48 damage, -20 wsm %21 dex
DEX Spirit Edge: 45 damage, -15 wsm %21 dex
DEX Warp Blade: 68 damage, -10 wsm, %21 dex.

You instantly see that dex bases has more damage, or less damage but waay faster, and they also scale better from dexterity.

So i dont see your point.

[LeQuebecois]

Also you are comparing a one handed sword to two handed sword, and they are both strength. Good argument.

I think what he means is not a comparison between 1h and 2h str based weapon. But the fact that str weapon has a '2h mode' that almost doubles its dmg , make 'str based weapons' more efficient than dext based if using 2h. Because there is no 2h dext based weapons with double dmg.

There is no dex based weapons with double damage? Does naginatas, amazon bows, amazon spears, normal spears doesnt count? They all have %25 dex to damage, and has a lot of damage as well, naginata being highest damage base in the game.

If we compare them:

STR Great Sword: 80 damage, 15 wsm %26 str
STR Giant Axe: 92 damage, 25 wsm %26 str
STR Hand of God: 105 damage, 30 wsm %26 str
DEX Maiden Pike: 73 damage, 20 wsm %25 dex
DEX Naginata: 111 damage, 10 wsm %25 dex

Most dex builds doesnt use 2 handers, and they dont seem to have much difference. Maiden pike has a bit less damage, naginata has a bit more.

If we compare 1 handers:

STR Long Sword: 47 damage, -10 wsm %18 str
STR War Axe: 51 damage, 0 wsm %18 str
DEX Blade: 41 damage, -20 wsm %17 dex
DEX Blade Talons: 48 damage, -20 wsm %21 dex
DEX Spirit Edge: 45 damage, -15 wsm %21 dex
DEX Warp Blade: 68 damage, -10 wsm, %21 dex.

You instantly see that dex bases has more damage, or less damage but waay faster, and they also scale better from dexterity.

So i dont see your point.

That's not my point , and never said I agree. I was just clarifying his point.
Actually i'm a real noob on game mechanics , just starting to dig into.

[Glamdring26]

It's not just about the EWD scaling. Str bases have better base physical damage. Strength weapon SUs in general also have more physical damage, and the highest min/max flat physical damage affix rolls only spawn on str bases.

In fact, as far as melee goes, block really isn't an argument in favour of dex, because there are no currently utilised generic melee dex weapons among popular builds. E.g. no Spear/Javelin non-class melee builds. Also there are many items that give additional EWD/str (e.g. UMO) and none for dex. Most strength builds (especially melee) also have much better single target skills by design - e.g. just compare DJ/Rend/Carnage against Fusillade or Noctule.

I definitely want to make str requirements more relevant again, so that str builds have an additional upside, but just think of the tears if every non-str build had to put 100-200 pts in strength to equip anything above light plate for instance. It's exactly the same as how "pure str" builds refuse to spare 100-200pts in dex endgame to fix their AR. After the latest patch with all the flat AR on jewels/tree power creep I think the situation is fine, especially for melee.

I heard the jewel argument before, but it doesnt work in labs because you reserve your sockets for gems.

Your points about balancing it otherwise with items and stuff makes sense, but i still think there is a big gap.

There might be no "generic melee dex weapons", but class spesific ones are far more superior than 1 handed str generic weapons. Also a lot of lab runners uses block builds which helps them a lot(Who wouldnt want free %75 block?).

Also DJ is worse out of those 5. It has delay and is useless against moving targets.

Buffing str requirement doesnt make much sense to me, because it has 2 pluses (both block and AR). So if you say they sacrifice some points into str to use their gear and you sacrifice some points into dex to get AR. But they also have block chance on top.

So my concerns is not about them being unbalanced in entire game, but rather creating a huge gap in labs. Str melee builds has a lot of trouble in labs where they need insane AR, and has no block, wheras dex builds has insane AR, and max block for free. This also makes any str shield build impsosible as well.

[Crash]

to be fair, the game isn't built around the new labyrinth, so all the people saying "my build can't do this without being a fully different setup" is rather unfair to the development. i don't necessarily agree with some of the difficulty spikes in labyrinth requiring such specific gear and socketing for max res, but to an extent, it's the challenge of the labyrinth.

[CallMeCrazySam]

to be fair, the game isn't built around the new labyrinth, so all the people saying "my build can't do this without being a fully different setup" is rather unfair to the development. i don't necessarily agree with some of the difficulty spikes in labyrinth requiring such specific gear and socketing for max res, but to an extent, it's the challenge of the labyrinth.

I'd be interested to see if there was any data looking at the total number of players, if they attempted labs, and how far into labs they have attempted. I'd wager most people don't really touch labs. If labs are meant to be an end game goal, the transition into them should be easier. Meaning those difficulty spikes you are referring to, as well as actually getting through most of the content before. Most new players get stuck at a point well before labs. Either their build isn't *good* enough to comparably complete content or a general lack of in-game information. Yes, we have the docs online, but games are way passed the point that you should have to look at external sources in order to understand how to play the game (QT is probably best example?). If a new player ends up enjoying a build that isn't "balanced" or slightly competitive, intuitive or easy to play, or otherwise cumbersome, and they end up hitting a wall, a lot of players drop off at this point instead of trying something different; if their first attempt failed, is the second guaranteed to be better? At this point, how far are they going to get? Judging from what I see in forum posts and on Discord, if someone does quit it seems to be around the 120 mark, which is well below the threshold to get into labs.

I still think the *best* thing the devs can do to push Sigma forward is to continue to work on their new player experience. Progression is a lot smoother now with ACs from quests, quest rewards once again feeling rewarding, as well as redesign on certain ubers. However, it's something that is obviously a concern to them since the launch and is in the process of being worked on.

Most of that probably seemed off-topic as a reply, but it brings me to my point. Dev time should be spent improving content for 99% of their playerbase instead of the 1%. If people want to undertake the challenge, leave it as is, it is by no means required.

[Johnny Impak]

As far as I am aware of, the game itself is moving to a more ‘Everyone can do all content’. Look at the heroic shield removal, absorbs instead of immunity, removal of many said immunities/super healing.

Being this gear specific goes against what the mod is aiming for at the moment, having few builds that can actually clear labyrinth/Samael. But the point of what I’m saying is how to make harder stuff without penalizing a class/build.

[Ywinel]

Even if it's good topic for debate, this post has actually pretty inaccurate(or rather manipulated?) information
STR non class weapons compared to DEX class only ones? Even class only to other class only is not perfect way since they are usually balanced especially for class play style.

But let's ompare class ones to other class ones. It's pretty simple comparison for 1 handed ones and shows that higher base dmg goes to str ones. Warp Blade is only exception, I think this may be not balanced one but this is rather material for whole separate topic.
For 2 handed ones, if naginata is so good all the people are not running with this shit? - it isn't. Few point of damage more has no comparison to Thunderfury or Mega Impact procs while naginata has just AoE attack. Also, 2 handed ones doesn't have to be so different because there is no block.