Ladder vs. Non Ladder

I'm wondering if we can create a friendly dialogue about the separation of Ladder vs. Non Ladder players, and the effects of MXL season updates across both.

Like a few people I play Non Ladder exclusively, essentially because I work too much to be competitive on Ladder; and also because of time obligations to my family. Generally speaking, I can play for maybe a few hours a week at most, so I enjoy keeping the same chars/gear permanently rather than starting over every 6 months.

What this means however, is that the chars I play are lvl 140+ and subsequently so is their gear. When an update such as this one adds +25 lvl req to an item like

Natalya's Deception

Natalya's Deception
Quilted Armor (Sacred)
Defense: 2263 to 2331
Required Level: 80
Required Strength: 500
Item Level: 120
Orb Effects Applied to this Item are Quadrupled
Socketed (6)

it puts some of the best gear I've got out of the realm of possible use permanently. Given that this is one of the rarest SSUs in the game I'm a little saddened by this. The same goes for the additional +10 lvls to CoTW. These are end game items, generally it's a good idea to use them at their highest possible level. Is item lvl req something that's impossible to separate between old items and ones that are newly dropped on Ladder? Genuinely asking because I don't know the answer.

I understand the reasoning for the item nerf, Nat's was objectively too good before the update. As much as I truly appreciate the hard work from the devs, it just feels like there's a general apathy for the NL community from a dev standpoint with changes such as this one. I should also add that the vast majority of this update is awesome, relics seem like a fantastic addition. One final question I have is regarding the henchman change this update. I notice that the lvl req dropped by 10 for all of my henchman pieces, but the double MO bonus remains. Is this intentional by the devs or is it not possible to alter that aspect of the set? Thanks for reading.

I support this dialogue

Content for and changes to the game are made for Ladder. This is where the vast majority of people play and arpgs thrive on fresh economies.

While we do support single player & non-ladder, we will never abandon a change we want to make to the game because it negatively impacts those two areas. So to answer your question - yes whenever we change an item's required level it impacts all existing items, no way around this.

You also have to keep in mind that while some changes will end up negative for you (e.g. old maxed Nats being unusable on NL), many other changes will be positive. For example you still have pre-nerf versions of many items which were deemed OP, you can exploit all the dual wield stat sticking from early sigma patches and so on. So if you like NL you have to accept both the positives and the negatives and roll with them.

I am new in Median xl and i so disapointed to see my 2 ladder char unplayable for now...blood and tears for peanuts

suchbalance wrote:Content for and changes to the game are made for Ladder. This is where the vast majority of people play and arpgs thrive on fresh economies.

While we do support single player & non-ladder, we will never abandon a change we want to make to the game because it negatively impacts those two areas. So to answer your question - yes whenever we change an item's required level it impacts all existing items, no way around this.

You also have to keep in mind that while some changes will end up negative for you (e.g. old maxed Nats being unusable on NL), many other changes will be positive. For example you still have pre-nerf versions of many items which were deemed OP, you can exploit all the dual wield stat sticking from early sigma patches and so on. So if you like NL you have to accept both the positives and the negatives and roll with them.

I appreciate the answer, and I understand that your goals are to enact change on the much larger Ladder community. I certainly didn't mean that you should abandon a change you intended to make due to the potential detriment of Non Ladder players.

I was thinking more along the lines of how to find the best of both worlds, given that you mentioned your support for the Non Ladder community. For example, the new Relic CoTWs are unsocketable, which in itself makes them far more varied and usable than the old ones which cannot be unsocketed. Would it be possible to remove the "Cannot be Unsocketed" aspect of the old CoTW?

I know I'm not alone in saying that I'm a little disheartened to see some of my best CoTWs, (Beacon for example), being raised up to lvl 130 req this last update, and therefore raising the item it's socketed into to 160 req (was 140 before). I can't really see the purpose of doing this, as the old CoTWs don't drop anymore on Ladder and the new Relics are objectively far superior in seemingly every way including lower lvl req. I'm aware that there could be a greater underlying reason or issue that made you decide to raise certain old CoTW's level req, I'm just trying to work out what it is.

Would be great to hear a response on this one, thanks again.

Would it be possible to remove the "Cannot be Unsocketed" aspect of the old CoTW?

It's not, and that's one of the main reasons NL is provided "as is", you can't retroactively change items except for their level requirement. Yes, you mentioned a few cases where items become unusable during transition or some don't receive quality updates, but this is minuscule compared to everything you get in exchange ranging from overpowered legacy items, double trophies, lots of free gear, etc.

Marco wrote:
Would it be possible to remove the "Cannot be Unsocketed" aspect of the old CoTW?

It's not, and that's one of the main reasons NL is provided "as is", you can't retroactively change itemsexcept for their level requirement. Yes, you mentioned a few cases where items become unusable during transition or some don't receive quality updates, but this is minuscule compared to everything you get in exchange ranging from overpowered legacy items, double trophies, lots of free gear, etc.

I have a couple questions about this due to some inconsistencies:

Why was the level requirement changed (at all) the for the CotW Jewels from 110 to 130 (adding a +20 Required Level to highly optimized 140/endgame items...rendering them useless) when they no longer drop on Ladder?
From a NL-only perspective this change seems like a targeted "punishment" at our community exclusively as there will never again be a ladder-only CotW Jewel.
Why are some CotW exempt from this change?

The only variable that can still be changed on NL as of now (level requirement) is the easiest and simplest solution. The relic system is a welcomed change and I, like many others, greatly appreciate the team's dedication and efforts.

Question(s): What is the development team's mission/vision/goal for the Non-Ladder community as a whole? How are we tracking in regards to those expectations -- on track, slightly more or slightly less in that progression?

"Question(s): What is the development team's mission/vision/goal for the Non-Ladder community as a whole?"

None. That was pretty clear from the earlier response.

I am not crying but you changed twise

Storm Blade

Storm Blade
Naginata (Sacred)
Two-Hand Damage: 378 to (751 - 850)
(Assassin Only)
Required Level: 125
Required Dexterity: 548
Item Level: 130
Dexterity Damage Bonus: (0.15 per Dexterity)%
Ethereal
Area Effect Attack
20% Chance to cast level 13 Javelin Nova on Kill
100% Hit Recovery
+(301 to 400) to Maximum Damage
-50% to Enemy Elemental Resistances
+200% Enhanced Damage
+(3 to 9) to Pounce
50% to Dexterity
75% Magic Find
-5 to Light Radius
Socketed (6)

in 2 seasons wich made 2 chars bad game inventory. Lucky wizardspike was safe last one.

The cotw level requirement was changed to 120 (as you can see on relics page/changelog). The non-ladder cornerstones shows as 130 because as the item itself shows, it has "+10 level req". Thinking it's a "targeted punishment" done to NL playerbase just seems childish, and resembles the sometimes SP mentality. There's a reason we offer these game modes for you to enjoy at your pace, as it would be both trivial and convenient to have ladder as the only mode, as other d2 mods do.

Question(s): What is the development team's mission/vision/goal for the Non-Ladder community as a whole? How are we tracking in regards to those expectations -- on track, slightly more or slightly less in that progression?

This was answered in my previous post. NL is provided "as is" and this is our vision. D2 engine is old and was never built with these issues (retroactive item changes) in mind. Investing already scarce engine dev time on NL functionalities doesn't seem like the best idea unfortunately with so much on the plate already.

There's going to be some coming changes that are going to be impactful to NL very soon, making nearly all items much stronger than intended. There is nothing we can do to stop it, so the real question is if it's worth to have NL at all. Maybe this is a question that you, the NL community, can help us answer.