Loaded, Comprehensive Feedback on Median XL S25 and Onwards

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Wulf
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inori92 wrote:
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Regarding 1 and 2: I rechecked correctly, and my bowzon has 550 str from charms alone, another 150 from gear (some pieces offer +all attr and all attr%).

to further showcase my point, I recalculated the bow values, only this time ill change the values to all the points you brought up: I'll use an avg prime bow roll, only factor in 550 str (137ewd) and 25% of the arrows landing instead of 100%. like you said, 500max ice breaker is somewhat improbable, so ill compare these new numbers with a 400max bow.

here are the results:
Image
lower dmg for sure, but a sub-5% difference. factor in the dmg loss of having to equip 2%max res in your ice breaker setup, and prime once again becomes higher dmg output.

also consider that i only recommend that bow only for bossing content, not farming areas like fauzt. but anyways, just thought id pitch in because you seemed to think this bow was beyond useless. if these numbers dont at least convince you prime is not as bad as you thought, at least i provided other readers with data to support my claim ♥
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I have to agree with Inori on alot of his points. He suggests some stuff that I have already suggested in the patreon channel on Discord (Auction fees, Knight's Grace), and I have played only two ladders (2015, and 2020 season now) but I have played Median off and on since 2007, so to be clear I'm not really the most informed on the history / players but at least have some past experience with the game.

One thing that irks me a lot is things like Knight's grace. They're a cool looking pair of boots, have nice stats. But they're overshadowed by a pair of boots you can target farm 3rd day in ladder as stated. However, I did suggest in Patreon channel to buff prior to the season, and we came to the conclusion that knocking the + requirements to lower the strength that rarely anyone wants to stat, and it would probably at least make it a sidegrade if you got some with some open sockets. Nothing was done to them so we just have Knight's sig. I don't want to see Windrunner nerfed, but I would like to see Knight's Grace be better or at least a sidegrade option.

I was really hoping Relics would shake up the itemization and items would find use but relics are too rare and it will take probably half the season for people to come together to get them going - but we can always just run a relic season later after tuning them up. Not too big of a disappointment, yet it is somewhat to be honest.

There is one more thing that irks me A LOT and it is the dismissive mindset that people give towards people whom are SP players. I know a lot of people tend to just end up light, full out cheating in it and then ask stupid questions; but it really feels like a lot of people dismiss SP players completely and I don't think it really helps the community at all to do so. This attitude extends to people telling people to just "go download perfect items etc" and disregard any accomplishments they may have gotten in SP, or outright assuming they're all cheaters. They're players too; even if their choosing to play a different way.
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Wulf wrote:also consider that i only recommend that bow only for bossing content, not farming areas like fauzt. but anyways, just thought id pitch in because you seemed to think this bow was beyond useless. if these numbers dont at least convince you prime is not as bad as you thought, at least i provided other readers with data to support my claim ♥


Compare any bossing from any physical bow in existence to Askarbydd as I illustrated in my 3rd point, there is no valid argument because Askarbydd can literally have half of both Icebreaker or Valkyrie Prime's raw sheet damage and still do more damage when you consider Rapid Wyrmshot as well as boss resistances.

I also want to say that I didn't mean to come off hostile or negative in any way, I appreciate your guide a lot and spent over a good hour of collective time reading it to test and create what I deemed to work best for me in efficiency. You helped many readers you've never heard of and probably won't, but as you say, your readers know. I am definitely one of them, so again, thank you for the guide.

At the same time, due to my illustrated points, Valkyrie's Prime does not find as the "Best-in-slot" competitor in any specific facet - farming, bossing, Labs - due to the limitations I have stated. Labs for example, is content where you might need at least around ~90% resists before pierce done to you near the end, but there's HP, avoid, etc. In the end, though I can't comment since I don't understand Labs much beyond T12, my foremost though would be to try maximizing in other ways to achieve these resists so I don't lose so much damage by equipping this bow. If the game can be simplified into - a) Single-target encounters and b) Multi-target encounters, then Askarbydd is king of a) and Icebreaker/Athulua's Wrath is king of b). This means, adding in the rare difficulty of requiring 6 emblems and Deity's bow, Valkyrie Prime essentially has no place in a min-max scenario. This is why, I feel simply that Prime is not something that should be posed as potential "best-in-slot", because quite frankly, practically speaking, it's not. At least not for Bowazons. It should be posed as, "This is what it does, feel free to tinker with it, you will have an easier time with X / Y / Z".

== Some more new ideas / suggestions ==

- Group play enhancement reminder -
Again, would be really nice if you can figure it out somehow. Doesn't have to be my suggestions like increasing multiplayer drop rates or leveling, though in my mind those are the best ways to promote group play.

- Returning to older maps -
In my first feedback thread a few seasons ago, I posted and talked about finding ways to reuse older "rifts", such as IOTSS / K3K / Cows / TA / Silver City. To a degree, players should want to return to these maps at some point in their venture, these are special maps and they all have a great unique design. However, due to specific design limitations on EXP as well as loot, these maps become obsolete very fast for most end-game characters. If you make it so SSU's even, can drop at astronomically low rates (1-2% of a Sacred Unique's chance to roll), I guarantee you, the drops in most of these maps would be exciting during the leveling process or when you farm them for their bias (K3K for sets/shrines, IOTSS for gold). Like, there really should be some way to incentivize these maps so farming players don't spend 70%+ on Duncraig and the remainder on Fauztinville. The opportunity cost scaling is way off, and perhaps you want it to this way, but I feel that these maps have a lot of wasted potential despite adding great flavor to the times they are utilised.

SSU addition is not the only way to incorporate more "universal drop" themes however. I played Grim Dawn a lot, there were these bosses called "Nemesis" which if you kill enough monsters of a certain type or "faction", they have a very low percentage to spawn by a random lobby creation. It's like Uber Diablo. I think something like this, some super powerful monster that has a 1-2% chance to spawn at a given lobby made in a K3K pub run with 4 newbs, or while you're running Fauzt / IOTSS for gold once in a blue moon, it could add some flavor and incentivize revisits to these older maps. I have plenty of ideas alone, I am sure you can create better with a development team.

- More Drop Rate Parity -
Few seasons ago, there was word on the street among good players (at least my source of elite players on this game), that Duncraig was ninja-nerfed. I don't know if this is true or not, but I will say during that season, I often saw 0-1 SU per Duncraig run, whereas Sigma season 1, I remember seeing 2-5 on average. To be honest, it seems better now, but this could entirely be RNG. I don't have the source codes, nor should I have them. However, I will say that Duncraig is just far too superior to every map. I personally keep myself in Fauztinville as soon as I gear for it, because a large part of my enjoyment in this game is to find the never-seen-before GG's like the Arrogance from last season, or this season, my luckiest drop ever, in Storm Blade. I never expected to find either of these in my Median career but here we are. Nevertheless, if I want to actually "gear up", and play this game, play economy or whatever, I would sit in Duncraig for 10 hours a day. It's simple - the drop rates are far too superior compared to Fauzt or Viz'jun, the only other two farming maps that can drop SSU's, and the level of difficulty is lower too. So I think this needs some parity. As I mentioned before, Viz'jun at the very least, is in dire need of buffs, enough to attract players to walk to this map without a Waypoint, and actually hit their monsters. Even their bias, which I recall to be jewels, is better farmed in Fauztinville when you consider all the factors.

- Unique Mystic Orbs, Labyrinths, General Documentation -
How many people that have played this game for less than two seasons, know that the best place to "farm" Unique Mystic Orbs, is Bull Prince Rodeo because he has a 1/30 - 1/50 of dropping one? Again, uncertain values because I don't know about the changes of time and current documentation. How many people know that farming Hatred difficulty is the best for UMOs due to how their drops are categorized and the limits of drops? Sure, not everything was documented back then in this regard either, and not every little detail might matter, but it's 2020 and that's not a valid excuse in my opinion. It can happen, but if it's known, it should be corrected or improved. Labs is the same thing, if you post the benefits of Tiers in Labs instead of requiring players to look at older patch notes or google through 10 questions, if you even post the HP values of Phoboss, how much pierce he has, resistances, abilities etc. and make it more accessible under "Documentation", how much more players will actually delve into the content? You have ways to make announcements in the game, right? Why not drop a random tip every few hours, or every hour, why not advertise "dive into this content for more loot and rewards!" I feel the options are really endless here how to encourage players to continue their ventures. You're not spoon feeding them, you're not posting guides and showing every build and how it can work. But you need to at least provide the spoon with the bowl of cereal, the rest is up to them what they want to do with it. Not everyone's going to want to eat, but some will, and they need the tools to do that, they need to know where it is and they need to know where to find it. I speak for many people when I say that it's not obviously clear all the time.

- Gold and Signets of Learning -
Gold gets useless real fast. Sure, it might not be the biggest issue. Signets also received a very healthy quality of life change this patch due to trinkets (jewels amulets rings) being salvageable. But this also devalues them fast. Here's some crazy ideas:
Gheed's Pot of Greed / Pot of Greed / Gheed's Legacy / Gambler's Fallacy / WHATEVER -
Charm - level 100 requirement - Cube with ~4 "Gheed's Secret Recipe" or w.e - each purchased with 1 million gold from Gheed, and a "Gheed's Stolen Vase" drops from the TA entry guy or something? Gheed's Mentor? Maybe don't even need this, but why not? 10-20% drop rate, instructions on the empty vase. Maybe requires some signets with/instead? Don't know.
Can roll the following:

1 ~ 20/30? Gold Find
1 ~ 15? Magic Find
1 ~ 5/10? STR / DEX / VIT / ENE
1 ~ 5? All resists?
1-2 ~ 5-10 Damage?
1 ~ 500 Defense?
Select some lines of stats, watch gold not be useless and require millions for the perfect charm.

Want to make it even more crazy? Make it ~10 pages of secret recipe, make it cost 1 million gold each, bound to class upon cubing like Heroic Torch, gives 1 completely random skill, 85% base tree spells, 15% level 90 spell. Sounds too crazy right? Maybe, but it's a gamble.

Or make it eat some signets for rerolls or something. Who knows.

I really like the idea of Signets being eaten up for improving some items - signets are essentially Sacred Uniques, right? They should have more value as a "currency" than just stat points and be useless after 400 and Samael fees, signets of learning are essentially proof of your played time. 6x Emblems with Book of Median, Ancient book - +1sk right? How about 100 Signets + some book charm or w.e gives 10 stats? I think trophy fragments are in a great place with Restitution, signets of learning need something similar. They need some sort of a sink.

- Throwing Spears / Knives and Throw builds in general -
Needs buffs. Amazon throw is dead and uncompetitive. Sin throw tree is good for 1 build and that might be the main issue, but these knives/spears are mostly just underwhelming. I know Storm Crow is mentioned almost every patch, but really, is it criminal for sins to have buffs on some farming ability like their Scorpion blade, or have a level 30 spell that isn't Broadside, which is used mostly by Nagi-sins anyway? I admit that there might be some really hidden OP things, but again, if your player base is opting to not play any of them, you can say, "Why aren't they playing it? It's obviously buffed/good", or you can make it so that people see this and say, "Ok I HAVE to try this".

- Xis Runewords -
I am of the belief that every patch, you need to rework / tweak at least 2 of these and bring them up to speed. Nothing wrong with some runewords getting buffed and becoming flavor for a season. If Wizardspike and Trinity Beam can have a birthday for two seasons, so can a bunch of other, much more obsolete items.

More to come.
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Wulf
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inori92 wrote:
Wulf wrote:also consider that i only recommend that bow only for bossing content, not farming areas like fauzt. but anyways, just thought id pitch in because you seemed to think this bow was beyond useless. if these numbers dont at least convince you prime is not as bad as you thought, at least i provided other readers with data to support my claim ♥


Compare any bossing from any physical bow in existence to Askarbydd as I illustrated in my 3rd point, there is no valid argument because Askarbydd can literally have half of both Icebreaker or Valkyrie Prime's raw sheet damage and still do more damage when you consider Rapid Wyrmshot as well as boss resistances.

I also want to say that I didn't mean to come off hostile or negative in any way, I appreciate your guide a lot and spent over a good hour of collective time reading it to test and create what I deemed to work best for me in efficiency. You helped many readers you've never heard of and probably won't, but as you say, your readers know. I am definitely one of them, so again, thank you for the guide.

At the same time, due to my illustrated points, Valkyrie's Prime does not find as the "Best-in-slot" competitor in any specific facet - farming, bossing, Labs - due to the limitations I have stated. Labs for example, is content where you might need at least around ~90% resists before pierce done to you near the end, but there's HP, avoid, etc. In the end, though I can't comment since I don't understand Labs much beyond T12, my foremost though would be to try maximizing in other ways to achieve these resists so I don't lose so much damage by equipping this bow. If the game can be simplified into - a) Single-target encounters and b) Multi-target encounters, then Askarbydd is king of a) and Icebreaker/Athulua's Wrath is king of b). This means, adding in the rare difficulty of requiring 6 emblems and Deity's bow, Valkyrie Prime essentially has no place in a min-max scenario. This is why, I feel simply that Prime is not something that should be posed as potential "best-in-slot", because quite frankly, practically speaking, it's not. At least not for Bowazons. It should be posed as, "This is what it does, feel free to tinker with it, you will have an easier time with X / Y / Z".

askar has very bad single-target dmg. i think youre overpraising a famous item that is midgame stuff at best.

i went ingame on zon and tested kab runs.

askar (wolf stance+spellbind): 32 secs
499breaker phalanx (no wolf, spellbind): 19 secs
craft phalanx (no wolf, spellbind): 15-22 secs

not perfectly angled mind you, they looked something like this:
► Show Spoiler

i dont have a prime yet on sp so i couldnt test it against the others, but acry does and had an identical time compared to hit 400max breaker. so id suspect its around 20s.
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Wulf wrote:i went ingame on zon and tested kab runs.

askar (wolf stance+spellbind): 32 secs
499breaker phalanx (no wolf, spellbind): 19 secs
craft phalanx (no wolf, spellbind): 15-22 secs

not perfectly angled mind you, they looked something like this:
► Show Spoiler

i dont have a prime yet on sp so i couldnt test it against the others, but acry does and had an identical time compared to hit 400max breaker. so id suspect its around 20s.


I want to ask about the rolls of the items you compared, and honestly, just watch a video of your runs. I also think that this is a vacuum example, Kabraxis is a boss where you run around in circles avoiding his balefire while every phalanx you cast has positional hit # guarantees. For the harder bosses of this game - Uldyssian's wild jumps, Astrogha with her healing/slow statues, Labyrinth mini-bosses such as Barbs, Phoboss, or high Tier rift mobs that spawn in single-doubles which one Rapid Wyrmshot from Askarbydd can down, phalanx performs worse overall, you will want Rapid Wyrmshot and take the hit on overall damage to do the content "better". But I agree, Askarbydd is not for all the content, I believe there's even a ~150 raw damage difference between a Perfect craft vs. Askarbydd. Again, it's the practicality of Rapid Wyrmshot that gives this item value, along with the 15% life leech. This is obviously very important later in content that can actually threaten to kill you, less so in Kabraxis - you just run around and pot while you spam the spell of your choice based on your bow.

Anyways, I appreciate all your insights and testing into the game, but I don't want to turn this into a bow-debate thread. You know more about bowas overall than I do, but I feel like unless you get yourself an Askarbydd with a similar roll % to your craft / Valkyrie / Icebreaker and expand your sample size to encompass more events - different types of bosses, Labyrinths - I feel like your examples will remain in a vacuum that focuses more on statistical damage output over practicality. For example, a 600 damage top-end craft spamming phalanx for say, Astrogha, vs. a 450-max Askarbydd zon. I haven't tested both bows here, but I can have sub-2 minute runs with Askarbydd here, I'm not sure about phalanxes on this highly mobile, corridor-ridden, heal-from-AOE damage (totems). Feel free to share results on that in your guide.
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inori92 wrote:
Wulf wrote:i went ingame on zon and tested kab runs.

askar (wolf stance+spellbind): 32 secs
499breaker phalanx (no wolf, spellbind): 19 secs
craft phalanx (no wolf, spellbind): 15-22 secs

not perfectly angled mind you, they looked something like this:
► Show Spoiler

i dont have a prime yet on sp so i couldnt test it against the others, but acry does and had an identical time compared to hit 400max breaker. so id suspect its around 20s.


I want to ask about the rolls of the items you compared, and honestly, just watch a video of your runs. I also think that this is a vacuum example, Kabraxis is a boss where you run around in circles avoiding his balefire while every phalanx you cast has positional hit # guarantees. For the harder bosses of this game - Uldyssian's wild jumps, Astrogha with her healing/slow statues, Labyrinth mini-bosses such as Barbs, Phoboss, or high Tier rift mobs that spawn in single-doubles which one Rapid Wyrmshot from Askarbydd can down, phalanx performs worse overall, you will want Rapid Wyrmshot and take the hit on overall damage to do the content "better". But I agree, Askarbydd is not for all the content, I believe there's even a ~150 raw damage difference between a Perfect craft vs. Askarbydd. Again, it's the practicality of Rapid Wyrmshot that gives this item value, along with the 15% life leech. This is obviously very important later in content that can actually threaten to kill you, less so in Kabraxis - you just run around and pot while you spam the spell of your choice based on your bow.

Anyways, I appreciate all your insights and testing into the game, but I don't want to turn this into a bow-debate thread. You know more about bowas overall than I do, but I feel like unless you get yourself an Askarbydd with a similar roll % to your craft / Valkyrie / Icebreaker and expand your sample size to encompass more events - different types of bosses, Labyrinths - I feel like your examples will remain in a vacuum that focuses more on statistical damage output over practicality. For example, a 600 damage top-end craft spamming phalanx for say, Astrogha, vs. a 450-max Askarbydd zon. I haven't tested both bows here, but I can have sub-2 minute runs with Askarbydd here, I'm not sure about phalanxes on this highly mobile, corridor-ridden, heal-from-AOE damage (totems). Feel free to share results on that in your guide.

i recorded an astrogha video of a mid-game geared bowa with 3 honorifics. astro took her 2:22 mins from the moment she entered the level. that was using a craft and spamming phalanx, not giving a fuck about breaking statues. so if askar gives you a 1.5-2 min astro clear on a lategame setup, that sounds very bad.


just tried a run with breaker phalanx: 1:19 min with 4 deaths.
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When it comes to skill testing and documentation of Oskills, I'm in the same boat as Inori. Testing these things is a pain for most players becuase even if you get an item with an Oskill, building out the rest of the gear to see if it's legit can take a good amount of time and TG of $$ if you aren't rich. Same can be said for testing items. Some itemization for builds is just bad.

I first started a month before sigma. When sigma dropped, I donated for some TG and played my butt off. After scouring items, I came across the Hammer of Johlm. I probably blew through 200$ worth of TG testing this thing. I made a barbarian first, for the stats and nephalem spirit link. That sucked. I then tried a tree druid for the str/vita boost. Better, but not getting me through level 120 dungeons. I then leveled an amazon, pally and assassin, all for this one stupid hammer. Then I'm told that the pierce that the maul is supposed to give while whirlwinding doesn't work.

I quit that first season and moved to single player. I've worked with a group of other players, each season, to gather all of the new items. With 40+ characters fully decked out in gear, I can test Oskills and builds all I wanted. I managed to get a D2stats snapshot while whirlwinding in SP to confirm the pierce did not work and eventually came to the forums to share my findings and my journey of building the characters in single player. People started to ask me for the characters so they too could test builds. Then I got banned. I was trying to help.

So many other new players could go through the same process I went through, grinding for hours or spending TG on something that doesn't work. For some reason, the idea of sharing crap on single player to test these builds gets torn apart on the forums and discord. I would imagine that people testing builds on SP might stop them from spending $$ on TG, so it's frowned upon to share characters and "cheat" in single player.

All of that could have been avoided with some documentation. There isn't even a Wiki page for Whirlwind. To this day I'm not even sure if the pierce for Johlm has been fixed because clicking the d2 stats window and snapshotting a whirlwind is nearly impossible. I had NO IDEA that we could update that wiki. Now that I do, I might go add a little note on the page for the Hammer.

Btw - it turns out a UHM pally wrecks with the hammer now. Life on hit and pierce from the pally skill, combined with the speed of hits from whirlwind can let you tank t13 rifts. The amount of gear, time, and TG I would have had to spent to figure that out online is crazy.

I've now learned just to focus on one character per season and push it. I'll only try an oskill build if I can afford it based of trades, even with putting 25-50$ in per season.


One thing that I think would be awesome for this community would be a season event where people could submit ideas for new items or changes that would make an item better. We would then voted on a favorite somehow. Path of Diablo has done this and it's extremely engaging. I also participated in the speedrun even and LOVED it, even though I knew a necro was going to smoke it from the start. I love this mod, the staff, community, and forums. I would love to see things grow and get better.
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Man we had a nice thread going before wulf came and derailed it with SP nonsense. Go plug your guide someone else dude

Acry wrote:There is one more thing that irks me A LOT and it is the dismissive mindset that people give towards people whom are SP players. I know a lot of people tend to just end up light, full out cheating in it and then ask stupid questions; but it really feels like a lot of people dismiss SP players completely and I don't think it really helps the community at all to do so. This attitude extends to people telling people to just "go download perfect items etc" and disregard any accomplishments they may have gotten in SP, or outright assuming they're all cheaters. They're players too; even if their choosing to play a different way.


Their experiences are different and it doesn't help the community when someone who doesn't play a mode suggests balance changes for a mode that affects a huge number of people. Case in point, I observed a SP player the other day suggest to Marco that the new Riftwalker boss was too easy and it should be buffed. Yeah lemme take a lv 140+ geared out character I've played for several months and put him against a lv 105 boss meant be be fought the first few days of a new season and see what happens.
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Evil SP players want to destroy Median XL part 666 :twisted:
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As a SP player, my sole purpose in life is to corrupt the life of young impressionable people to convert them into the SP faith :evil: