Differences between single and multi

[Frytas]

So there is no SP trading subforum, therefore it needs boosted drop rates, but... There is a SP trading subforum you clearly didn't see, and nothing prevents you from using TG with it. Thanks for proving my point I guess, even tho you didn't mean to.

Yeah, basically the same thing as TSW trading, no difference at all. And it's not like there is a stigma against SP trading or something, or that you reinforce it yourself. lmao



So uh, thanks for proving my point I guess, even tho you didn't mean to.

god you're disingenuous

Point still stands

[Somnus]

BRB time to open an SP shop 24 7 open, all the items in the game to trade.

[Marco]

1. You said that your point was proven by the fact that there is a subforum for SP trading, but in your next post you're explaining why trading on SP is dumb and is not a thing. There is trading, but no one uses it, because it sucks, so there is no trading. What is your final opinion then?

There is generally no trading, but there is copying. It's called trading because I guess that makes us all feel better. But that doesn't change what it really is. And not sure what you mean "it sucks" - it's used infrequently by the reasons I already mentioned, one of them being that you only need to trade for an item once. In addition, I assume many people figured out themselves already that they're getting copied items and don't want to compromise their playing integrity, or they were clever enough to just google them. In any case, how does this translate into "lets boost SP drop rates"?

2. When it comes to what you said about the goblins, I believe higher drop rates on SP was a compensation for lack of goblins, which was closer to balance this topic than what we have now. Having both higher drop rates and goblins on SP I could agree with you that it would be one-sided view of the situation (even though there's still trade topic, but lets skip it to simplify that for a moment). However, lowering drop rates on SP and having no goblins there isn't that one-sided from MP point of view? In that way you're not only rewarding MP players, but also punishing SP.

Drops in SP were higher much before goblins were added though, so none was the reason for the other. But, sure, I can agree that MP-only goblins can feel unfair for SP after drop changes and most certainly will consider this for the next patches. Our current justification was that we wanted to have a unique feature about TSW (and as much as bitter people like making fun of that - it's what keeps expensive servers & infra running that are also needed for SP). It's not the ideal feature for this spot and we will look for something better to take that place.

3. How it happened that SP had higher drop rates in first place? It wasn't a bug. It wasn't a mistake. it was fully conscious decision that was made after taking into consideration some pros and cons - and differences - between SP and MP. It speaks for itself, that some closer analyze is required here.

Many things have changed. The game was more reliant on trading before and SSF was not really a thing as much as it is today. The guide center is a good example of this. There are many people playing SSF online as well, and over the years the game has been balanced to be playable this way too.

Marco, you have a point there. I'm afraid that we won't reach common ground. I feel like you already made up your mind and you're not even try to take into consideration our argumentation, but rather you try to show us where we are mistaken.

Why do you think I'm posting here when clearly I'll be discussing with people that are upset drops are lower, just to heat the fire? I've also acknowledged it would make sense to add goblins to SP. It's a reasonable request and seems consistent with our views about SSF MP and SSF SP having the same drops.

So there is no SP trading subforum, therefore it needs boosted drop rates, but... There is a SP trading subforum you clearly didn't see, and nothing prevents you from using TG with it. Thanks for proving my point I guess, even tho you didn't mean to.

Yeah, basically the same thing as TSW trading, no difference at all. And it's not like there is a stigma against SP trading or something, or that you reinforce it yourself. lmao

So the fact that people aren't using the SP trade subforum (for many reasons I already mentioned) is because we are imposing a stigma and hate SP so much that we even gave them special treatment with buffed drop rates for years. That victim mentality & bitterness will surely get you far.

You're basically whining we aren't building/increasing the trading ecosystem in SP even though it's easier to use google to get items, instead of wasting dev time, only so that you can feel better about yourself?

[Frytas]

So there is no SP trading subforum, therefore it needs boosted drop rates, but... There is a SP trading subforum you clearly didn't see, and nothing prevents you from using TG with it. Thanks for proving my point I guess, even tho you didn't mean to.

Yeah, basically the same thing as TSW trading, no difference at all. And it's not like there is a stigma against SP trading or something, or that you reinforce it yourself. lmao

So the fact that people aren't using the SP trade subforum (for many reasons I already mentioned) is because we are imposing a stigma and hate SP so much that we even gave them special treatment with buffed drop rates for years. That victim mentality & bitterness will surely get you far.

No, what I'm saying is that trading on SP is not a thing in any real capacity, yet you pretend that it is. Everybody knows this, you've been around here for well over a decade, I remember you from the old forums, from your summoner necro guide specifically, so you know this as well, yet you pretend like you don't.

You're basically whining we aren't building/increasing the trading ecosystem in SP even though it's easier to use google to get items, instead of wasting dev time, only so that you can feel better about yourself?

I don't give a damn about the TRADING on single player, I care about the exact opposite, being able to play solo self found and actually be able to complete a build eventually all by myself. But you just nerfed that, AND multiplayer has goblins, AND multiplayer has trading. And don't compare TSW trade to SP trade again, it's like comparing a supermarket to a yard sale, and even that is a generous comparison for SP.


Your point about "googling items" is just plain stupid, why even play the game at that point? Do you also download finished save files for other games you have? wtf. I self wipe every patch(like a ladder reset) and play ssf because the point of the game is to make your character stronger through levels and gear, I just prefer SP cause there's no lag, what are you even on about with this "get an item pack" bs?

Also very valid point about wasting dev time, makes one wonder why you wasted your time to nerf SP droprates instead of leaving them as they were.

What's with the personal attacks, too? Did I insult you or something, at any point?

(btw - I'm on TSW right now cause it's clearly advantageous to play there at the moment, but I would highly prefer to stay on SP, hence why I'm arguing for it)

[Anonymous:]

Can we lock it now ?

[Somnus]

Can we lock it now ?

This is a first, I agree with him!

[Frytas]

Yeah, you don't like or care about the topic so it should be shut down, fantastic mindset

[Marco]

No, what I'm saying is that trading on SP is not a thing in any real capacity, yet you pretend that it is. Everybody knows this, you've been around here for well over a decade, I remember you from the old forums, from your summoner necro guide specifically, so you know this as well, yet you pretend like you don't.

Your first argument leveraged the fact that SP trading doesn't exist and therefore it was entitled to higher drops. My point was that it doesn't exist because its not really trading, but provided you with evidence that we did try to support it regardless. If you agree with me that it doesn't exist because of having control over savefiles, I don't really understand why you brought it up in the first place. It just entangles the discussion and I feel like I'm repeating myself.

Your point about "googling items" is just plain stupid, why even play the game at that point? Do you also download finished save files for other games you have? wtf. I self wipe every patch(like a ladder reset) and play ssf because the point of the game is to make your character stronger through levels and gear, I just prefer SP cause there's no lag, what are you even on about with this "get an item pack" bs?

I'm not here to do value judgment but let's not pretend duping doesn't happen in SP. Even for people who want to use it for a sandbox to test characters is a fairly valid use case. Other people have more fun that way. I don't necessarily encourage it but it's there. If you prefer SP due to no lag that's perfectly fine, if you decide to abide by some rules like a fictional SP ladder that's really none of our business, so doesn't hold much ground. In practice, people playing 2.2 SP can and are using characters & items from 2.1 and before, we never promoted against it, it's part of SP and another reason (in addition to shared stash) why it having boosted drop rates didn't feel justified.

What's with the personal attacks, too? Did I insult you or something, at any point?

You've called me disingenuous, if I wasn't gonna speak my mind honestly maybe I wouldn't post at all. Or at least say how I'm being it, so I can correct you. At least OP is having a constructive approach to the conversation and making a valid point about goblins. I don't care to go personal anyway but I do believe there are people who share your views and it may seem worthwhile (?) to respond.

[Frytas]

Your first argument leveraged the fact that SP trading doesn't exist and therefore it was entitled to higher drops. My point was that it doesn't exist because its not really trading, but provided you with evidence that we did try to support it regardless. If you agree with me that it doesn't exist because of having control over savefiles, I don't really understand why you brought it up in the first place. It just entangles the discussion and I feel like I'm repeating myself.

It exists in a sense that you don't outright ban it, but everybody knows it sucks, it's not legit and hardly anyone participates in it. I don't, and I treat it as though it does not exist, and it doesn't compare at all to what you can do on TSW. It seems that it's ignored by the majority of SP players too, judging by the lack of activity on the forum.

I'm not here to do value judgment but let's not pretend duping doesn't happen in SP. Even for people who want to use it for a sandbox to test characters is a fairly valid use case. Other people have more fun that way. I don't necessarily encourage it but it's there. If you prefer SP due to no lag that's perfectly fine, if you decide to abide by some rules like a fictional SP ladder that's really none of our business, so doesn't hold much ground. In practice, people playing 2.2 SP can and are using characters & items from 2.1 and before, we never promoted against it, it's part of SP and another reason (in addition to shared stash) why it having boosted drop rates didn't feel justified.

If my "fictional ladder" is none of your business, then why is other people duping your business? Same principle applies. I say balance things out for legit players, treat everyone as though they play legit and if somebody cheats, fuck them, don't consider them at all.


-SP gets higher drop rates cause they can't trade(and again, refer to the tcp/ip trade forum as evidence, it's dead, not because everyone has everything already, but rather because nobody cares or wants to use it) +no goblins,
-MP players get goblins, but lower average drop rates than SP(additional MP feature that you want, resulting in occasional random boost in drop).

I'm not arguing for some weird shit, just reverting things back to the way they were.

You've called me disingenuous, if I wasn't gonna speak my mind honestly maybe I wouldn't post at all. Or at least say how I'm being it, so I can correct you. At least OP is having a constructive approach to the conversation and making a valid point about goblins. I don't care to go personal anyway but I do believe there are people who share your views and it may seem worthwhile (?) to respond.

Because I genuinely believe you are being disingenuous. You've been around for a long time in the mxl community, and yet you pretend like some things aren't just obvious, commonly accepted stuff, like SP trading being frowned upon and not being used, while the MP market flourishes. I don't know how else to look at it, you gotta be aware of this stuff, it's self-evident.

e:cleaned up the quotes to only include Marco cause these posts are kinda long otherwise

[Solfege]

Can't speak for anyone else, but adding new MP-exclusive content (e.g. raids) so goblins can be added to SP sounds like a pretty good compromise to me.

Incidentally, I kinda like the idea of treating SP and MP like Linux distro releases.
> SP (LTS release style) = more stable (i.e. balanced), but doesn't always get the latest features (i.e. content). Meant for long-term use (i.e. play across multiple seasons).
> MP (Rolling release style) = more chaotic (i.e. unbalanced), but gets access to bleeding edge features (i.e. content). Meant for cyclical use (i.e. seasonal play).