Differences between single and multi

[Anonymous:]

I'm not here to do value judgment but let's not pretend duping doesn't happen in SP.

Happens in MP too. So using this "SP is cheating" argument is not valid. The ban list in rules page says a lot.

[Taem]

As I only play MP, this conversation does not specifically relate to me directly, however I wanted to comment on the contrariety of this:

1. You said that your point was proven by the fact that there is a subforum for SP trading, but in your next post you're explaining why trading on SP is dumb and is not a thing. There is trading, but no one uses it, because it sucks, so there is no trading. What is your final opinion then?

Those two concepts are obviously NOT mutually exclusive as you paint them to be. SP has a subforum [TRUE], SP trading is dead because SP players dupe their items [LIKELY]. How is this confusing? It sounds to me like you are attempting to pick a baseless fight for the sake of making a point, but your point is lost.

3. How it happened that SP had higher drop rates in first place? It wasn't a bug. It wasn't a mistake. it was fully conscious decision that was made after taking into consideration some pros and cons - and differences - between SP and MP. It speaks for itself, that some closer analyze is required here.

What I hear Marco saying is with not only the ability to dupe, but the proliferation of it in SP, that more than accounts for adding Goblins to MP, tit-for-tat. So in this context, an equalizing of item drops across SP and MP would be fair and unbiased for both methods. IDK, what he is saying makes perfect sense to me. What am I missing?

What would be the alternative? For Whist to add an encryption for save files so they cannot be edited, hacked, or items duped, and then increase drops in SP? Then you might actually see some activity on the SP subforum? Win-win for everyone, right?

[ParticuLarry]

I'm sure the Season 29 player numbers, which had only a third of the players of the previous season has nothing to do with nerfing SP drop rates.

[Frytas]

What would be the alternative? For Whist to add an encryption for save files so they cannot be edited, hacked, or items duped, and then increase drops in SP? Then you might actually see some activity on the SP subforum? Win-win for everyone, right?

No, the solution is to ignore the cheaters and balance the game for those who play normally. Do you see any other devs balancing their game based on what you can do with cheat engine or shit like that? xd

[ParticuLarry]

What would be the alternative? For Whist to add an encryption for save files so they cannot be edited, hacked, or items duped, and then increase drops in SP? Then you might actually see some activity on the SP subforum? Win-win for everyone, right?

How about what Honkler said at the start of this topic? Improving the incentive to actually play with other people. For all the time I've been on the forum and lurking, it always seemed odd to me that MP was basically Solo play with trading. What's the point of MP if you don't play with multiple people all the time?

The only time you're incentivized to actually play in a group is either when you're leveling your char at the start of the ladder or when you're trying to push your toon to max level. Everything else, the main part of the game, is basically solo play all the time. Be it for the reason that you don't want your drops to be stolen or for bosses becoming significantly harder when playing in a group, or that killing time in general (especially when farming) increases significantly even with just 1 additional player.

I think just nerfing SP and thus getting a big part of the community salty isn't a good way of making your game more popular.

Positive encouragement is always better than negative encouragement. Simple psychology.

[Taem]

How about what Honkler said at the start of this topic? Improving the incentive to actually play with other people. For all the time I've been on the forum and lurking, it always seemed odd to me that MP was basically Solo play with trading. What's the point of MP if you don't play with multiple people all the time?

The only time you're incentivized to actually play in a group is either when you're leveling your char at the start of the ladder or when you're trying to push your toon to max level. Everything else, the main part of the game, is basically solo play all the time. Be it for the reason that you don't want your drops to be stolen or for bosses becoming significantly harder when playing in a group, or that killing time in general (especially when farming) increases significantly even with just 1 additional player.

I absolutely agree with this! I've always felt 1-charm should drop from ubers per player in the game, although I don't know how to restrict it so that only one charm (per uber) can be picked up per game, or if that is even possible. I also have wanted to see personalized drops... as in your kills cannot be picked up by anyone else for 10-15 seconds. I would love to see this! Then, increase the the charm benefits (the chance of spawning with high stats) per player in the game. Then you would see everyone playing together all of the time.

[Lynderika]

No, the solution is to ignore the cheaters and balance the game for those who play normally. Do you see any other devs balancing their game based on what you can do with cheat engine or shit like that? xd

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Still do not see arguments on why SSF MP and SSF SP should have different drop rates.

In 2.2 and before, goblins were very rare and barely relevent, but since the very recent patch that buffed their spawn rate(2.2.2 I believe), they for sure are important. So anyone can agree with the fact that they are a unfair, no problems.
But the rest of the whining, complaints that sp has less trade (???) makes no sense. Definitely agree with a lock as well.

What would be the alternative? For Whist to add an encryption for save files so they cannot be edited, hacked, or items duped, and then increase drops in SP? Then you might actually see some activity on the SP subforum? Win-win for everyone, right?

I think just nerfing SP and thus getting a big part of the community salty isn't a good way of making your game more popular.

Positive encouragement is always better than negative encouragement. Simple psychology.

You're all aware that sp "boost drop" simply was more unique right? Did you not notice that 2.2 also boosted rune drop rate (twice, even), that a few others drops such as cycle and scosglen boxes results were imrpoved? That Baal relic is a nice step?

Grouping all the time would be too much, but events, separated drops and all can't be bad of course.

[Frytas]

...

One of Marco's arguments is that SP drop rate should not be improved over MP because everyone just dupes, cheats, downloads item packs, etc. My argument is that if people want to spoil their game, that's their choice, but those of us who play legit SSF SP shouldn't be punished just cause some assholes dupe and cheat.


As for SSF SP vs SSF MP - my opinion is that in MXL, SSF MP is kind of a self-inflicted limitation, like my pseudo ladder resets on SP, because the option to trade is always there(as is the option to not delete your characters on SP), you just choose not to use it. But any time you want, you can opt out of it and trade with other players. It's a limitation you put on yourself.

In SP, getting items by yourself is your only choice. Unless you're willing to do the shady "SP trading", which almost nobody does, so it's safe to assume that you're in the majority and don't use it as well, you're stuck with what you find yourself. So once you go SSF SP, there's no going back - you made the choice, you're stuck with it.

I would consider SSF MP as more of a challenge than a separate game mode. Same as my "SP ladder resets", I'm not complaining about them being unfair, I just don't think the game should be balanced around them. SP should be balanced based on the legitimate SP playerbase, which does not dupe, cheat or otherwise fuck with the game.

Definitely agree with a lock as well.

Again, you want to shut the discussion down cause it doesn't affect you. It's a censorious attitude and helps nobody, unless you cannot handle dissenting opinions being voiced because it harms your ego, then I guess that explains it.

But the rest of the whining, complaints that sp has less trade (???) makes no sense.

I don't think you read what I had written at all. I literally stated I don't give a shit about SP trading, yet here you are talking about it like it's some major argument. The only way in which I addressed it is that I agree it's not really legit and I don't participate in it.

[Lynderika]

...

One of Marco's arguments is that SP drop rate should not be improved over MP because everyone just dupes, cheats, downloads item packs, etc. My argument is that if people want to spoil their game, that's their choice, but those of us who play legit SSF SP shouldn't be punished just cause some assholes dupe and cheat.


As for SSF SP vs SSF MP - my opinion is that in MXL, SSF MP is kind of a self-inflicted limitation, like my pseudo ladder resets on SP, because the option to trade is always there(as is the option to not delete your characters on SP), you just choose not to use it. But any time you want, you can opt out of it and trade with other players. It's a limitation you put on yourself.

In SP, getting items by yourself is your only choice. Unless you're willing to do the shady "SP trading", which almost nobody does, so it's safe to assume that you're in the majority and don't use it as well, you're stuck with what you find yourself. So once you go SSF SP, there's no going back - you made the choice, you're stuck with it.

I would consider SSF MP as more of a challenge than a separate game mode. Same as my "SP ladder resets", I'm not complaining about them being unfair, I just don't think the game should be balanced around them. SP should be balanced based on the legitimate SP playerbase, which does not dupe, cheat or otherwise fuck with the game.

Definitely agree with a lock as well.

Again, you want to shut the discussion down cause it doesn't affect you. It's a censorious attitude and helps nobody, unless you cannot handle dissenting opinions being voiced because it harms your ego, then I guess that explains it.

But the rest of the whining, complaints that sp has less trade (???) makes no sense.

I don't think you read what I had written at all. I literally stated I don't give a shit about SP trading, yet here you are talking about it like it's some major argument. The only way in which I addressed it is that I agree it's not really legit and I don't participate in it.

The problem is that the discussion goes nowhere, you only make point that already were adressed or has no value. Do you only read half of marco's post?
"Many things have changed. The game was more reliant on trading before and SSF was not really a thing as much as it is today. The guide center is a good example of this. There are many people playing SSF online as well, and over the years the game has been balanced to be playable this way too."

"I've also acknowledged it would make sense to add goblins to SP. It's a reasonable request and seems consistent with our views about SSF MP and SSF SP having the same drops."

That's all there is to say in the matter. Why do you still repeat the same things again and again? ssf players aren't punished in any way. Some dupe or trade or whatever all they want, whatever man it doesn't matter in the long run.

[Frytas]

He's been acknowledging adding goblins to SP for 4 or 5 seasons(excuse my memory, I don't keep the exact count), I know cause I argued with him about it when they were introduced, and no such thing has happened since.

The discussion is not "going nowhere", we're exchanging points, that's how discussions work...if at the end of the day I can't convince him then so be it, but I care so I'm trying. Just telling me to fuck off cause you agree with Marco and want this discussion to be over is not really productive.

Also like I said, you're not reading what I'm saying.

SP should be balanced based on the legitimate SP playerbase, which does not dupe, cheat or otherwise fuck with the game.

Some dupe or trade or whatever all they want, whatever man it doesn't matter in the long run.

Last I heard id software didn't balance Doom based on people who use godmode, and neither should MXL for those who dupe and cheat.