(2.2) Build balance in Acts 1-3 normal and feedback

[fr0gbug]

I really appreciate all the work you put into this. This highlights well a lot of the early game balance issues that were created with 2.0 (and I don't regret 2.0 for a minute btw). Although many will be quick to say "But median xl doesn't really start until 1XX+...", it doesn't mean there can't be a bit of attention paid to low level struggles more than just band aid fix of free respecs.

[iwansquall]

Seeing this thread remind me of my early day, which i tried to level up all class to level 24 in classic median, unlocking all skills and trying to give feedback in my own way. I did some small test as well (I have 2 thread which i made here to gather some data...albeit alot of biased in the past :

thread 1
thread 2

I didnt play whole sigma in version 1, so i dont have good baseline, but i can vaguely remember how to progress through back in normal median as well as marco's median ultimative. While personally I think median no longer a game for me (multiplayer focused, long hundred hours investment), I did enjoy unlocking new stuff as well as beating new ubers in 2.0.

@OP
Do you think median in 2.0 have limited some early game player choices compared in the past which made game less fun / workaround until they unlocked their key component (main skill & LC sunstone). All my character experience (I played like 7 classes once) and I noticed big difficulty spike starting from act 3 toward act 5 (until you reached level 50), you think that would be the case? Since you only played until end of act 3

I dunno if these was removed earlier (as in sigma long before 2.0) but here are some options i remember

Gemword & Jewelword - Not the best gear, but it super cheap way to get resist
Runewords purge / condensed - It feel like it was much easier to have several key RW in the past, my fav was cannonball RW with 40 frw
Gold farm viability - I thought i remember 2.0 is such limited player to use MO in early game, since rare throwing weapon trick is gone
Lack of FRW gear - Again, i forgot which version when stamina rebalanced & median changed to snail pace game)
Skill tree overhaul - I am puzzled either the overhaul was good for median or not, especially those skill that have its passive stripped off
General rebalance - The moment i think i dislike median direction was when proc & rainbow flat elemental damage build was nerfed
Mana cost - Oh gosh, this is my biggest issue with d2 engine in generally, you cant make skill scale up without increasing the cost

Sorry if there inaccuracy above, mostly i just recalling stuff from 6 months ago. I really wish I could play median again (especially after treasure goblin added to SP... like finally), but changelog after changelog, there isnt much stuff that hyped like beginning of 2.0 did.

*Hah, ppl complainted about bowzon issue since beginning and they was no changes? Those passive tree is boring man.

[Siosilvar]

I dunno if these was removed earlier (as in sigma long before 2.0) but here are some options i remember

Gemword & Jewelword - Not the best gear, but it super cheap way to get resist
Runewords purge / condensed - It feel like it was much easier to have several key RW in the past, my fav was cannonball RW with 40 frw
Gold farm viability - I thought i remember 2.0 is such limited player to use MO in early game, since rare throwing weapon trick is gone
Lack of FRW gear - Again, i forgot which version when stamina rebalanced & median changed to snail pace game)
Skill tree overhaul - I am puzzled either the overhaul was good for median or not, especially those skill that have its passive stripped off
General rebalance - The moment i think i dislike median direction was when proc & rainbow flat elemental damage build was nerfed
Mana cost - Oh gosh, this is my biggest issue with d2 engine in generally, you cant make skill scale up without increasing the cost

Gemwords were removed in 2017, along with the first nerf to the rune/throwing weapon gold trick. Jewelwords, complete removal of selling gold, proc chance halving, and FRW/stamina were all 1.0 along with the SU rework.

[heamn]

Nice write up, thanks for the hard work

in my opinion, if we are talking about speed/mana and overall fluidity throughout Act1~3

Templar: Should be at least Tier 2
1) Retaliate: Nova Skill that you don't need to kite/reposition, just need to get into the middle of the pack, less aoe than EQ, but super solid
2) Divine Judgement: Solid Boss killer
3) Potential Mana Issue: Easily solved by one mana on hit mystic orb
4) Melee Devotion: Superb 20% less dmg taken
5) Wirt's Leg: i SHIT you not, a 8-12 base damage and very fast attack weapon, easily carries whole Act 1 or until you get a weapon upgrade
6) Solar flare upkeep issue: if we are talking about Act1~3, don't sweat too much on keeping this up other than bossing
7) Survivability: if you find issue, get a life gain on hit mystic orb, getting 30~40k gold by end of Act 1 without even try harding is very reasonable.

BowZon: Should be at least Tier 2
1) Trinity Arrow: superb bossing skill, now with improved projectile speed.
2) Phalanx: again, superb bossing skill, takes some training to line shit up
3) Barrage: Superb clear for a level 5 skill
4) Wyrmshot: to replace barrage for even sweeter coverage
5) Dragonlore: phys resist and pierce, sweet
6) Ecstatic Frenzy: 150% attack speed, nuff said
7) Glass cannon'ish: but with the right mindset, and positioning easily shit thru Act 1~3 with life steal
8) Potential Mana Issue: again should be easily solved by mana steal mystic orb

[Lynderika]

I didnt play whole sigma in version 1, so i dont have good baseline, but i can vaguely remember how to progress through back in normal median as well as marco's median ultimative. While personally I think median no longer a game for me (multiplayer focused, long hundred hours investment), I did enjoy unlocking new stuff as well as beating new ubers in 2.0.
@OP
Do you think median in 2.0 have limited some early game player choices compared in the past which made game less fun / workaround until they unlocked their key component (main skill & LC sunstone). All my character experience (I played like 7 classes once) and I noticed big difficulty spike starting from act 3 toward act 5 (until you reached level 50), you think that would be the case? Since you only played until end of act 3

I don't think it's much longer or too multiplayer focused now honestly, but I might be biaised because Naginata is perfectly playable SSF and is pretty much my only experience. My biggest complain would be scosglen charm, in that aspect. Oh boy it's long if you don't trade for tenets...
Well, it is quite limiting that the best way to level most char now is literally to chose the best skill, put all your points in that and only use that. But it has been really, really long since I played old median (I skipped ultimative and years of patches entierely), so I can't really say more.
I never felt a spike in A4-5 normal, if anything i've felt big dps slow down by A5 nightmare and early hell.

Gemword & Jewelword - Not the best gear, but it super cheap way to get resist

I think adding more things would just result in players moving even more away from Magic/rare, which isn't the best to me either.

Runewords purge / condensed - It feel like it was much easier to have several key RW in the past, my fav was cannonball RW with 40 frw

There's less "gimmicky" runewords for sure. But resists being the most significant stat at this point doesn't help. It's easy to get key items, but they are Rainbow, enlightement, shark, pax and Honor for almost all chars, so yeah. I don't really have an opinion on that, though.

Gold farm viability - I thought i remember 2.0 is such limited player to use MO in early game, since rare throwing weapon trick is gone
Lack of FRW gear - Again, i forgot which version when stamina rebalanced & median changed to snail pace game)

I requested thoses as well ; A side area with gold bearers and more frw/+ to stamina equipement. Playing a sin and getting stamina shrines has been my fix.

Skill tree overhaul - I am puzzled either the overhaul was good for median or not, especially those skill that have its passive stripped off

Well, there's a bit of everything. Most skills are more or less the same separated or not. Sorc is a bit more free, sin as a few good part, shadowrush being separated from Shadow refuge was good for exemple. I'd say it just need polishing, so more skills are worth to max, or to take at 1 points even if it's not your main tree.

General rebalance - The moment i think i dislike median direction was when proc & rainbow flat elemental damage build was nerfed
Mana cost - Oh gosh, this is my biggest issue with d2 engine in generally, you cant make skill scale up without increasing the cost

Some tri ele ied damage are trying, some phy items are introduced with flat ele such as the new owl dagger, sin can do it with ways, banish curse is very strong... but yeah there isn't much, and some of the flat ele access is from effligies, which is far from hopes and dreams of most players.

Sorry if there inaccuracy above, mostly i just recalling stuff from 6 months ago. I really wish I could play median again (especially after treasure goblin added to SP... like finally), but changelog after changelog, there isnt much stuff that hyped like beginning of 2.0 did.

I found clawsin and summon nec to have really nice changes in 2.1, so I was happy with thoses. But more than adding new content, I think it would be better to slow down and try to improve and fix what we already have.

[void]

DUDE! Huge respect for the work you did

I think that you're right that some things are essential (Pax Mystica), and these things should be freely given to the player (aka >80% chance to find the ingredients by the time you reach the level you can use it).
Because it's a must-have and without it, the game is a lot less fun and rewarding.

I think the runeword solution for needing early teleport is a good thing though. Especially when it used to be just nef + staff.
There is something rewarding about quickly making the staff in the cube while you keep running and properly using weapon swap, and once you get a better source of teleport, that slot is freed up. The experience of mastering it feels like an accomplishment of sorts, at least to me.

Problem is just that Pax Mystica now needs 2 runes instead of only 1 that are too rare to be a guaranteed drop even on their own. And the fact that you can't downgrade runes anymore only complicates matters further.
The 1-rune runewords were definitely better, especially for lvl 1-120.


As you said, leveling is not so rewarding. I miss explosive leveling too.

And drops are just... really not so good...
I think if drops were better, that would help some specs have a smoother run throughout the game (apart from buffs to the skills of course).

Nerfs usually suck. Nobody wants to play a patch that has been nerfed to the ground. Buffs to the weak spots of the game are usually more exciting for players.

Gemword & Jewelword - Not the best gear, but it super cheap way to get resist

I think adding more things would just result in players moving even more away from Magic/rare, which isn't the best to me either.

IMO, the better way to go about it is to reintroduce the gem/jewelwords and at the same time buffing magic/rare so that they are more viable (by a lot at low affix level). This increases the chance of being able to make something useful with whatever you find.

The problem is not that gemwords are a decent option, it's that magic/rare just don't offer good benefits to begin with.
What the heck is wrong with a blue level 8 glove affix that gives 20 ias or something?
What if blue items ilvl 1-60 (or thoughout the entire game) offered something actually useful on them? (Probably a lot of vendor shopping would happen, but what's so bad about that anyway?)
It's for sure not going to break the endgame but it would be cool, especially when starting a new char and SSF.

[d0dulk0]

Ijust wanted to thank you, these videos are super entertaining just to watch even without the context. But the work you put into it is juts on another level

[Immortal2563]

Sorry but I do not understand the point of this post at all. At a normal degree of difficulty? Who needs such statistics?

So do the same guide on Hell Difficulty and let people tell you what problems they have with completing the campaign when you pick some dead setup, especially if it's your first character and you don't have mules with equipment. Complete your campaigns on this difficulty, Fire Mage or TrapRat. Good luck. I remember very well how I ran away with one mob of a fire wizard because I couldn't kill him !!!

[mortimer_85]

Sorry but I do not understand the point of this post at all. At a normal degree of difficulty? Who needs such statistics?

So do the same guide on Hell Difficulty and let people tell you what problems they have with completing the campaign when you pick some dead setup, especially if it's your first character and you don't have mules with equipment. Complete your campaigns on this difficulty, Fire Mage or TrapRat. Good luck. I remember very well how I ran away with one mob of a fire wizard because I couldn't kill him !!!

First of all:
OP clearly stated what the post is all about - the very early lvling balance on untwinked chars.
If you can't take some useful stuff out of this thread that is fine but I see no reason to get offtopic while criticizing the content without any substantial feedback.

Second:
If you think that the problem you stated is much more of an issue - provide similar content for that stage of the game.

And third/last but not least:
All the positive comments in this thread clearly show to me that the topic actually is a big issue for many players.

So ty again, Lyn.

[berry117]

I'm somewhat of a tier 4 oh boy enthusiast myself.

And by enthusiast I mean I enjoy suffering