[2.3] Scolsgen: Nec vs Barb Sum (SSF Perspective)

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heamn
Gravedigger
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Let me preface, i love the changes on Barb Sum, otherwise i wouldn't have played him to 139, but i do feel sad about not being able to play it at Scolsgen semi effectively.

Barb did fautz with flying colors, much slower than Necro, but 3x safer than necro, not even a single pot is needed for a full fautz run.




TL;DR
1) Necro was able to break into scols with minimal gear, while barb being gated behind accuracy.
1.1) While the new Spirit Reave hard carries on lots of bosses like HARD, some bosses/encounter is awkward, example breaking the nest thing during spirit world fight, which was related to minion accuracy.
2) Item choice is scarce on barb

Barbarian: https://median-xl.com/char/BarPanDuh
(charms and rings and some jewels were muled to necro, normally my guardian spirit does around 12k dmg on sheet)
Necromancer:
https://median-xl.com/char/snapshot.php ... 1657817398 (Pure Abyss Knight Spec
- Roadblock with Magic Absorb Tree and slow Corrupted Druid Kills

https://median-xl.com/char/snapshot.php ... 1658039194 (Hybrid Abyss Knight + Summon Crow
- Hawk's targeting is super bad when dealing with fast moving, or monsters that constantly summoning adds (Example sapling guard or the corrupted druid, or the hyper teleport etherborn)
*This could be solved if the oversummoning feature for hawks works, sadly it doesn't
Overall this setup helped with magic absorb targets, but only when your hawks hits the right target, most of the time they don't




The journey started with my barbarian which was hard stuck at Fauzt, the staple SU Shield and SSU Sword did not happen, and could not break into Scolsgen, it could technically run it, but things takes ages to die, so i decided to reroll necro summoner for the reworked Abyss Knight

and was surprised to learn new things about Abyss Knight

Abyss Knight
It always advertised/recognized as "spell caster" but what it really does is an attack that gets 100% converted to magic damage, the always hit tag is the workaround for an attack to act like a spell, spell always hits.

Side Note: Grim Vision Aura from blood skeleton does synergize with Abyss Knight, you can even see crushing blow effect.

The journey from level 1~135 is very linear and gets better for every extra Abyss Knight, after Kurast's recent changes you generally get ~20 set pieces per full clear, with signets in mind farming the full summoner set is a breeze, although it took me at about 600+ signets to get my +1 max minion armor piece.

And boy i was surprised that Abyss Knight Spec (with occasional oversummon to brute force thru stuffs) was able to break into scolsgen with just
Satanic Mantra
Satanic Mantra
(Necromancer Summoner Set)

Till We Have Heaven In Sight
Through Death's Veil
Lend Me Thy Light
Archangel Dark Angel

Set Bonus with 2 or more set items:
+75% to Summoned Minion Life
+200% to Summoned Minion Attack Rating

Set Bonus with 3 or more set items:
+2 to Necromancer Skill Levels
+50% to Summoned Minion Damage

Set Bonus with complete set:
+3 to Necromancer Skill Levels
+1 to Maximum Necromancer Minions
+25 to Void Archon
+17 to Dark Power
+100% to Summoned Minion Life
+50% to Summoned Minion Damage

Aiwass
Aiwass
Gloves

'ZodKa'
Runeword Level: 105
+15% Malice Skill Damage
+3 to Necromancer Skill Levels
+(30 to 35)% to Summoned Minion Damage
+293 Defense
(21 to 35)% to Strength
+(1 to 100) to Life
Regenerate Mana +(5 to 10)%
+15 Life after each Kill
Gloom
Gloom
Necromancer Shields

'LuxHem'
Runeword Level: 105
Abyss Knights Reduce Enemy Magic Resistance by 10%
+(4 to 5) to Necromancer Skill Levels
+(20 to 25)% to Summoned Minion Life
+(50 to 60)% to Summoned Minion Damage
+10% to Summoned Minion Resistances
+200% Enhanced Defense
Elemental Resists +15%
Physical Resist 5%
(15 to 25)% Magic Find
, tainted crafted belt 2 +1 ring and +3 ammy.

It's not as fast as other showcase does, but for how cheap and how SSF-able the gears was, it's very impressive.

Small showcase: https://youtu.be/oq524rLXrhg
Obviously not fast, the magic absorbing sapling guard is the roadblock, as Abyss Knight is doing 100% magic damage, etherborn is fairly easy, corrupted bosses are expected to be tough.

Edit 2: 17/07/22 - Added my SP decked Summon Barb Showcase

Gears involved
Shadowtwin
Shadowtwin
Fanged Helm (Sacred)

Defense: (2978 - 3285) to (3149 - 3474)
(Barbarian Only)
Required Level: 100
Required Strength: 500
Item Level: 105
Summon Two Ancient Spirits per Cast
+2 to Barbarian Skill Levels
+(41 to 50)% to Summoned Minion Life
+(31 to 40)% to Summoned Minion Resistances
+(172 to 200)% Enhanced Defense
Cold Resist +40%
Socketed (4)
- Legacy with VK, but VK does basically nothing.
Gladiator's Rage
Gladiator's Rage
Spatha (Sacred)

One-Hand Damage: 46 to 48
(Barbarian Only)
Required Level: 100
Required Strength: 500
Item Level: 120
Strength Damage Bonus: (0.14 per Strength)%
4% Chance to cast level 16 Bloodlust when Struck
+(2 to 4) to Barbarian Skill Levels
+(1 to 2) to Maximum Barbarian Minions
40% Cast Speed
+(50 to 75)% to Summoned Minion Life
+50% to Summoned Minion Damage
+50% to Summoned Minion Resistances
(10 to 30)% Gold Find
(10 to 30)% Magic Find
+(3 to 5) to Light Radius
Socketed (3)
~~ +2 Max Spirit
Toraja's Champion
Toraja's Champion
Gilded Shield (Sacred)

Defense: (7944 - 8978) to (9847 - 11129)
Chance to Block: 1%
(Barbarian Only)
Required Level: 100
Required Strength: 700
Item Level: 105
+(2 to 3) to Barbarian Skill Levels
+2 to Maximum Barbarian Minions
+(30 to 38)% Damage to Protector Spirit Bloodlust
40% Cast Speed
+(21 to 25)% to Summoned Minion Damage
+(115 to 143)% Enhanced Defense
+500 to Life
+250 to Mana
Elemental Resists +10%
+10 Life on Striking
+(6 to 7) Mana on Striking
Socketed (4)
~~ +2 Max Spirit
Tyrael's Might
Tyrael's Might
Ancient Armor (Sacred)

Defense: 11859 to 14685
Required Level: 130
Item Level: 130
Ethereal
50% Movement Speed
+100% Damage to Demons
+100% Damage to Undead
+200% Enhanced Defense
Maximum Elemental Resists +15%
Physical Resist 50%
Cannot Be Frozen
Requirements -100%
Celeri Caelesti Iustitia
Socketed (6)
~~ For easy max res and phys res
Tainted Crafted Glove+Belt+Boots
+1 rings with minion stats x2, +3 Ammy
Jewels are 7% minion dmg or up

Relics Setup:
Sun Champ - to fill in some phys resist
Void Archon - Defensive aura
Dark Power - AS buff

To make my point of hitting hard but missing most of the time
Character invested into pure Strength
30 Lion Stance
15 Neph Spirit
25 Guardian Spirit
1 Defender Spirit
25 Protector Spirit

https://youtu.be/pkZr_j0OhWE
Did not record for longer, but you can see the clear speed is comically bad, the only redeeming point is spirit reave carrying single target.

► Show Spoiler





1) Accuracy Issue

It sparked my interest, my barb did took bear stance for more tankiness, but technically should have more deeps on paper, total of 18 spirits + protector spirit bloodlust buff + wolf debuff + neph spirit

But why was it performing so badly? after some comparison, it came to me, it's about the accuracy, please see pictures within spoilers for comparison.

Please note that my barb has more %minion accuracy than my necro (Barb 459% vs Nec 404%), yet a level 15 VK or a level 1 Summon Hawk has tripled the accuracy rating versus level 20 guardian spirit, meanwhile blood skeleton is as bad.

and then the best part is VK and Hawk has 6x the accuracy compared to level 20 Defender and Protector Spirit.

This explains ALOT on why are they performing so poorly in scolsgen, it simply doesn't matter how hard your damage can be pushed, if it simply missed.

Like, how much more %minion accuracy do i have to push to make Defender/Protector Spirit to even pull some weight?
This is with socketing multiple io runes in mind, which also translates to losing the opportunity for %minion damage jewels.
If you are socketing that much runes, might as well swap back to Runemaster+Wolfstance combo

Accuracy checks by using Javazon in SP and offline tools free respec, no bellas were harmed. (thanks Kambala :lol: )
► Show Spoiler


Accuracy from Barbarian
► Show Spoiler


Accuracy from Necro
► Show Spoiler





2) Lack of gear choices on Barb
As per mentioned earlier, necro was able to break into Scols, kill uldy with just some very SSF-able gears, and has very flexible upgrade path depending on what gears you find, and things can only get better from there onward.

While Barb basically are tied with 2 BiS piece,
Gladiator's Rage
Gladiator's Rage
Spatha (Sacred)

One-Hand Damage: 46 to 48
(Barbarian Only)
Required Level: 100
Required Strength: 500
Item Level: 120
Strength Damage Bonus: (0.14 per Strength)%
4% Chance to cast level 16 Bloodlust when Struck
+(2 to 4) to Barbarian Skill Levels
+(1 to 2) to Maximum Barbarian Minions
40% Cast Speed
+(50 to 75)% to Summoned Minion Life
+50% to Summoned Minion Damage
+50% to Summoned Minion Resistances
(10 to 30)% Gold Find
(10 to 30)% Magic Find
+(3 to 5) to Light Radius
Socketed (3)
Toraja's Champion
Toraja's Champion
Gilded Shield (Sacred)

Defense: (7944 - 8978) to (9847 - 11129)
Chance to Block: 1%
(Barbarian Only)
Required Level: 100
Required Strength: 700
Item Level: 105
+(2 to 3) to Barbarian Skill Levels
+2 to Maximum Barbarian Minions
+(30 to 38)% Damage to Protector Spirit Bloodlust
40% Cast Speed
+(21 to 25)% to Summoned Minion Damage
+(115 to 143)% Enhanced Defense
+500 to Life
+250 to Mana
Elemental Resists +10%
+10 Life on Striking
+(6 to 7) Mana on Striking
Socketed (4)
, but if you are on SSF and they dont drop, then yeah... and then there's at least a redeeming RW
Morthwyrtha
Morthwyrtha
Barbarian Helms

'IoSur'
Runeword Level: 75
+(3 to 4) to Barbarian Skill Levels
+1 to Maximum Barbarian Minions
+3 to Banish
+(16 to 20)% to Summoned Minion Damage
+(50 to 75)% to Summoned Minion Attack Rating
Regenerate Mana +(6 to 10)%
that is deterministic.

The Shaman Set bonus is so bad, just any Tainted crafted Swords (2x) + Armor and
Morthwyrtha
Morthwyrtha
Barbarian Helms

'IoSur'
Runeword Level: 75
+(3 to 4) to Barbarian Skill Levels
+1 to Maximum Barbarian Minions
+3 to Banish
+(16 to 20)% to Summoned Minion Damage
+(50 to 75)% to Summoned Minion Attack Rating
Regenerate Mana +(6 to 10)%
out classes the set

Small rant on the "New"
Shadowtwin
Shadowtwin
Fanged Helm (Sacred)

Defense: (2978 - 3285) to (3149 - 3474)
(Barbarian Only)
Required Level: 100
Required Strength: 500
Item Level: 105
Summon Two Ancient Spirits per Cast
+2 to Barbarian Skill Levels
+(41 to 50)% to Summoned Minion Life
+(31 to 40)% to Summoned Minion Resistances
+(172 to 200)% Enhanced Defense
Cold Resist +40%
Socketed (4)
it offers summoning 2 spirit on one click in replacement of VK, i understand VK might/can be abused hence needed the nerf, but why 2 summons on one click though? Without any oversummoning feature, it might be a QoL feature, but feels very hollow/pointless.




I hope that this can be received as a constructive feedback, i'm loving the direction of moving the base power/kit to tree, presumably gears/RW rework will only comes afte. a certain level of balance/power brought to the character tree

I'm apologize if i might sounded harsh in between the lines, was a little upset about not being able to push a build that i liked alot to Scolsgen effectively.
I can respec barb and moved on, but thats not what i wanted, so, yeah.

Edit: 16/07/22 - Added a small showcase video on nec
Edit 2: 17/07/22 - Added my SP decked Summon Barb Showcase
Edited by heamn 1 year.
Azyel
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Gotta say trade experience might differ alot from ssf but with skeld's undead combo scogslen is quite smooth, also dont mind the 555 unused stat points trying to figure wether vit or dex is the way from here. Also i dont consider protector + defenders to be damage dealers rather than just meatshields. guardian spirits & spirit reave is plenty of damage
ImageImage
heamn
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Azyel wrote:Gotta say trade experience might differ alot from ssf but with skeld's undead combo scogslen is quite smooth, also dont mind the 555 unused stat points trying to figure wether vit or dex is the way from here. Also i dont consider protector + defenders to be damage dealers rather than just meatshields. guardian spirits & spirit reave is plenty of damage
ImageImage



I'm intrigued, wonder if you'd be kind enough to share a short showcase video on how it performs in Scolsgen.
Added a short showcase on my Nec in the post, wanted to get a comparison.
abababa7
Dark Huntress
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I'm playing with Neph Spirit version, so tested Runemaster with full of Io Runes.
At least 15% minion's total damage lost, bit slower at Fauztinville and Vizjun.
But Scosglen, middle to high lab, I feel somewhat smoother than Neph version.

By the way, it bring great synergy to Sinner, Frostwalker, Glowing Fungus that massive elemental pierce.
Ofc they have unsummoned while I was testing.
heamn
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abababa7 wrote:I'm playing with Neph Spirit version, so tested Runemaster with full of Io Runes.
At least 15% minion's total damage lost, bit slower at Fauztinville and Vizjun.
But Scosglen, middle to high lab, I feel somewhat smoother than Neph version.

By the way, it bring great synergy to Sinner, Frostwalker, Glowing Fungus that massive elemental pierce.
Ofc they have unsummoned while I was testing.


Thanks for sharing your testing result, the triple summons seems to be a great addition, i've also read about Shamanic Trance affects them too,
although not sure if it was a intentional feature, but hopefully remained.

As checked, summon frostwalker/sinner roll-able on barb swords/shield
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smartasss
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Frostwalkers are very underwhelming. They have no aoe and they dont do single target dmg either.
heamn
Gravedigger
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Did some further testing using the same SP Barb i showcased earlier.
*Darkpower did not help as they are spell casting.

Sinner
- Aoe coverage with the Apocalypse skill is very satisfying, but damage is lackluster.
- Spell focus and energy only scales with Skill level, low dmg ceiling seeing that source for + all skill can be limited.

Frostwalker
- No AoE, targeting is very bad with moving target
- Pierce Scaling is almost 2.8x compared to Sinner and Glowing Fungus
- Spell focus and energy scales with minion life %, has good potential/synergy

Glowing Fungus
- Best Ai among the three
- AOE? no, nonononono, oh hell, 2 of these dudes and only 2 of these, totally blows my army of guardian spirits out of water for clearing trashy mobs in Scosglen, respectable single target damage too.
- Same pierce scaling like Sinner
- Spell focus and energy scales with cast speed, despite is a awkward stat on a barb to push, still good potential
- downside: Barb can only get this from Relic


Image

► Show Spoiler
CorralTheTroops
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The current HC barb leader is a summon barb running Neph spirit + bear stance, and stacking ele damage using %attributes.

https://tsw.vn.cz/char/Zabolekarq

I've been following this char closely for a few days since it's the only HC shaman not running bear + runemaster.
I don't know what/where he's farming, but it's been the same setup for quite a few days.
fr0gbug
Rust Claw
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CorralTheTroops wrote:The current HC barb leader is a summon barb running Neph spirit + bear stance, and stacking ele damage using %attributes.


How would %attributes help you stack ele damage on summons?
CorralTheTroops
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fr0gbug wrote:
CorralTheTroops wrote:The current HC barb leader is a summon barb running Neph spirit + bear stance, and stacking ele damage using %attributes.


How would %attributes help you stack ele damage on summons?


Neph spirit, please look at the notarmory bro.