Feedback: Lockout timers aren't fun

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Diaco
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nikulo wrote:
Diaco wrote:5s respawn and lifestealer won't prevent you from corpse-running bosses... The only option I could think of that could achieve the same effect without the lockout, would maybe be letting certain bosses regain 100% health the instant the player leaves the room



this would be the best imho, the bosses should regenerate 100% as soon as you die.


I'd say it needs to be as soon as you leave the area, since otherwise it'd allow you to just exit, heal/recharge potions, recast buffs in safety, and then come back.

Also, this would not work for labs, since you could just corpse run them. For labs I don't think there's any other option besides lockout timer... but maybe set it at 1 minute instead of 5 seconds if only to avoid the frustration of the infamous "starting point ambush".
Desperx
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Diaco wrote:
nikulo wrote:
Diaco wrote:5s respawn and lifestealer won't prevent you from corpse-running bosses... The only option I could think of that could achieve the same effect without the lockout, would maybe be letting certain bosses regain 100% health the instant the player leaves the room



this would be the best imho, the bosses should regenerate 100% as soon as you die.


I'd say it needs to be as soon as you leave the area, since otherwise it'd allow you to just exit, heal/recharge potions, recast buffs in safety, and then come back.

Also, this would not work for labs, since you could just corpse run them. For labs I don't think there's any other option besides lockout timer... but maybe set it at 1 minute instead of 5 seconds if only to avoid the frustration of the infamous "starting point ambush".


Nah just make 15 minut lockdown for labs and lets player decide if they have fun or not. Simple.
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Solfege
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100% boss regen. How would that work for MP? If you have 3 people teaming up vs. boss, does boss regen to 100% even if only 1 player dies/leaves?

Unfortunately, lockouts probably aren’t going away. I think a lot of people hate them, but also understand they’re a necessary evil to prevent cheesing. So we kinda just tolerate them.

Some suggestions to add to the pile that I think may be a decent compromise:
  • No more Dungeons with lockouts buried deep inside other Dungeons/Rifts (or in some cases inside multiple Dungeons/Rifts.
    Invasion III is one of the most egregious examples of this. You’re forced to go though so much pointless crap just to get there. And even if you play perfectly, you can still get screwed by RNG and die. Nothing about this concept encourages players to try again. As OP said, “walking back feels like a chore and makes me log off.”
  • Labs
    Labs are the hardest Rifts and should be brutal, so having lockouts there is fine, imo. What needs to change is how you get there. Since Riftstone drops are not guaranteed, the T1 Riftstone from Invasion III should be a persistent item that can be recharged. There’s literally no reason a player should be forced to go all the way back to Chaos Sanctuary just to restart Labs from the beginning because they got screwed by RNG.
Diaco
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Desperx wrote:
Diaco wrote:
nikulo wrote:
Diaco wrote:5s respawn and lifestealer won't prevent you from corpse-running bosses... The only option I could think of that could achieve the same effect without the lockout, would maybe be letting certain bosses regain 100% health the instant the player leaves the room



this would be the best imho, the bosses should regenerate 100% as soon as you die.


I'd say it needs to be as soon as you leave the area, since otherwise it'd allow you to just exit, heal/recharge potions, recast buffs in safety, and then come back.

Also, this would not work for labs, since you could just corpse run them. For labs I don't think there's any other option besides lockout timer... but maybe set it at 1 minute instead of 5 seconds if only to avoid the frustration of the infamous "starting point ambush".


Nah just make 15 minut lockdown for labs and lets player decide if they have fun or not. Simple.


It's not a question of fun, it's a question of preventing certain content from being cheesed.

Regarding lab access, I'd be on board with a rechargeable riftstone. Maybe even cubing it with different charms to provide access to each floor. That would also give another purpose to terribly rolled charms
Desperx
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Diaco wrote:
Desperx wrote:
Diaco wrote:
nikulo wrote:
Diaco wrote:5s respawn and lifestealer won't prevent you from corpse-running bosses... The only option I could think of that could achieve the same effect without the lockout, would maybe be letting certain bosses regain 100% health the instant the player leaves the room



this would be the best imho, the bosses should regenerate 100% as soon as you die.


I'd say it needs to be as soon as you leave the area, since otherwise it'd allow you to just exit, heal/recharge potions, recast buffs in safety, and then come back.

Also, this would not work for labs, since you could just corpse run them. For labs I don't think there's any other option besides lockout timer... but maybe set it at 1 minute instead of 5 seconds if only to avoid the frustration of the infamous "starting point ambush".


Nah just make 15 minut lockdown for labs and lets player decide if they have fun or not. Simple.


It's not a question of fun, it's a question of preventing certain content from being cheesed.

Regarding lab access, I'd be on board with a rechargeable riftstone. Maybe even cubing it with different charms to provide access to each floor. That would also give another purpose to terribly rolled charms


Why cheesed? What that even means? The 135 hardest bosses have 15-20 mins lock downs are they cheesed by players? So why should labs be so super hardcore made for 1% of builds? Also mind this is not year 2000 when majority of players were hardcore, today 90% of players are casuals which wants just fun and some chellenge. labs are just annyoing and bad content and its only end game content we have so I would like to have it improved. Scoglen is just bad zero exp, low density no fun. Fauzt is great but it ends at 140. Overall game is great until 140.
Just wanted to add that teleporting bosses in labs are zero fun as well.
frozsoul
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Why cheesed? What that even means? The 135 hardest bosses have 15-20 mins lock downs are they cheesed by players? So why should labs be so super hardcore made for 1% of builds? Also mind this is not year 2000 when majority of players were hardcore, today 90% of players are casuals which wants just fun and some chellenge. labs are just annyoing and bad content and its only end game content we have so I would like to have it improved. Scoglen is just bad zero exp, low density no fun. Fauzt is great but it ends at 140. Overall game is great until 140.
Just wanted to add that teleporting bosses in labs are zero fun as wel

Scosglen isn't a bad place, but I agree with the exp. I'm not sure what the point of such a low exp is.

Labs are good and should not be easy, you even say that they want some fun and challenge, but what kind of challenge that is easy?
You have 140 levels for the majority, let "hardcore players" enjoy their 10 levels left.
Diaco
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Desperx wrote:Why cheesed? What that even means? The 135 hardest bosses have 15-20 mins lock downs are they cheesed by players? So why should labs be so super hardcore made for 1% of builds? Also mind this is not year 2000 when majority of players were hardcore, today 90% of players are casuals which wants just fun and some chellenge. labs are just annyoing and bad content and its only end game content we have so I would like to have it improved. Scoglen is just bad zero exp, low density no fun. Fauzt is great but it ends at 140. Overall game is great until 140.
Just wanted to add that teleporting bosses in labs are zero fun as well.


If there were no lockdown on labs, it would defeat the entire idea of them. If there's no consequence for death, then you would not need to gear for labs. You could just gear for damage, go in, kill whatever you can until you get killed and then come back in, rinse and repeat until you clear the area. You can just ignore gearing for max resists or hp, so there'd be no strategic planning for it.

The entire point of labs is to provide an intellectual challenge: "How can I gear and build my character so that it can sustain the damage received in the area, while still having enough damage to clear it?". In fact, lockout timers and purify bosses are essentially the only reasons to gear defensively at all. Otherwise you can just gear for highest dps and corpse-run all the content.

I agree that certain content (labs, samael, etc) should be a bit more accessible, at least there should be more builds able to do them (provided they have good enough gear and are properly built for them), but removing lockdowns would behead the concept of that content altogether. You can already brainlessly farm all the rest of the content by just gearing towards damage, I think it's super important to maintain the mental challenge provided by labs.
MisterSweden
Prowler
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Speaking from my own experiences, i dont really get behind (some) of the lockout timers.

For multiplayer, sure, although having a lockout for a place within a place does not add to the challange of the boss itself, it only adds tedium and frustration. If the lockout does not have anything to do with the boss or the strategy of beating it, then its superfluous.

For cheesing the bosses? I dont know, i dont "powerplay" or the use builds. Heck, i would just say; let people have their fun. It depends entirely on what the goals are for the players and what the creators had in mind. Do they want people to group together and vanquish tough bosses, or do they weed people out and let said bosses be beatable only by a select few?

There needs to be an acknowledgement between what counts or amounts to Tedium or Challange, because they can´t be both.
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Lockouts by definition add to the challenge of the boss, because it gives you a time constraint after which you have just one more chance to clear Lockouts mean you can't just respawn indefinitely adding a little bit of chip damage every 10 seconds and you actually have to learn how to do the fight. The only one I can think of that's genuinely irrelevant is Baal, because 20 minutes is incredibly long for even a bad RNG clear.

Soulstealer can't be used in a lot of areas because it only triggers when the boss kills you, not any adds or arena dangers (e.g. Winter Storm in Sescheron's Destroyer). And if we simulate by giving adds an AoE heal on kill (e.g. witches in the Atanna Khan arena), builds using summons pretty much stop being able to complete it. This is why the Invasion fights have lockdown instead of soulstealer, for instance. The boss's health bar can't be reset by the Rift Storm without preventing summoners from doing it at all.

The tedium comes in when you have to remake games to try again. That's just how it has to be at the moment, because there is no way to regenerate an area or respawn a boss in the Diablo II engine.
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Zamioculcas
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I'm not a fan of the lockouts myself. It does add tedium and frustration remaking games and running back. I think healing the bosses by 1/4 or full depending on level would should be enough of a punishment. At least you can stay in the same game. Eventually the server reset will get you if you can't hack it anyway (another layer of punishment). All the current lockdowns do is reduce the player base. The 5s death countdown is annoying too.