Bat Lady Guide (SSF, Summoner, VIT assassin)

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Neyhanis
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Splargh wrote:Okay, considering
- Marcos comments that we still get 5 bats with max batstrike (6 with Specialization)
- bat wdm modifier (almost) doubled and attack speed increase
- 20% nerf to AR and dmg reduction (winged calamity)
- 50% ways nerf (elemental fangs)
- shadowdancer inheritance
- loss of Zular (this one I was expecting)


ways base lvls 190 to 75 sounds bad. 1 extra bat and double wdm modifer + attack speed increase might make up for it in flat elemental dmg numbers, but losing 115 (190-75) pierce hits hard.
70-80 pierce is not enough for bossing, so using Beacon over Phase Bomb will no longer be an option. Even with Phase Bombs pierce (is it 20? don't know for sure) we are still missing some. Only options left for more bat pierce are relic oskills like Mythal which you can realistically only get by trading.
Even with Phase Bomb and Mythal relic you would be sitting at 110 to 120 pierce, which are farming numbers, not bossing numbers.


Wait you're also misunderstanding something crucial :
Ways weren't nerfed by 50%. Its not half damage, its WAY LESS, the BASE LEVEL got halved, and since the scaling is exponential and not linear, half the levels doesnt mean half the damage, its much much much less.
In other words doubling the WDM % does not nullify this at all, only slightly lessen it. (And i'm not even talking about the naginata, but that was overkill and warranted thematically so lets leave it aside).

And about their bat strike skill : Marco said "nearly doubled wdm%, so lets say 180 or 190%... but it also lost 2 levels (winged calamity 10=>8), so it probably went from 100 to 160 ish or so?
something like 60%ish (rough guess) damage increase, while losing half the base levels, velocity and the AR make the damage plunge into nothingness.

There is a saving grace, or rather an unknown factor, which is the reduced delay. Just how much this impacts their attack speed remains to be seen but unless they hit twice or thrice faster (which I greatly doubt), I don't think it will be quite enough

Marco also recognised on discord it's worse then before, but better if you do both melee and summoning... I guess that's the only option now, and bats are now only a (strong) addition to meleesin. but meleesin sucks.
I mean it's somewhat fragile (having a VIT build going occasionally melee was one of the things which made Bat Lady good) and has to nonstop rightclick attack. Not to mention you're also missing aoe/farming options, so its basically :
sturdy half-melee bosskiller (bat lady) becomes => somewhat squishy fully melee bosskiller (melee+bat).
With perhaps a bit more damage then before cause you're also hitting. Very stretched in terms of points, very stretched in terms of gear and stats (need to be a dex-build and socket dex stuff, need +% dex gear, but also +% minion AR, +% minion life... kinda inefficient and hard to gear)
Playstyle more dangerous then before, and lose all +vit +hp, +% vit and base stats into vit, because of how stretched we are for the rest. Probably also lose quite a bit of +skills too for same reasons
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Marco
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There seem to be several misconceptions / odd calculations regarding bat changes.

1st - Bats never had level 200 ways. Skills have a max level of 150.
2nd - The AR and velocity reductions on winged are negligible and it was reduced for the GDR. It's like you guys are factoring the -AR as a 20% dmg loss which is ?? They do actually have AR before you spec into the skill, y'know :roll:
3rd - Its a bat per 5 base levels, not 6. Mistake on my part for outdated notes. And yes you can pick spec for a 6th bat now. (edit: updated log)
4th - exactly because ppl didn't scale minion dmg, shadow dancer becomes significant. 500%+ dmg mult, in addition to stronger base dmg because you're maxing bats, and some free DS AND the doubled WDM. It's essentially another way except you don't have to cap it.

It's like people are being blinded by removal of ZKT exploits and not looking at the full picture. My suggestion: wait and try it out


Edit: also would like to clarify on the bat changes since this seems to be a guide dedicated to a pure bat build. The idea never was to have a full summoner assassin spec but rather have bats be a support feature from the claw tree. Why? Because there is no minion gear support, it doesn't fit the assassin archetype, you have to drop melee devotion, still require melee to summon, and so on. This "build" worked before because skills like Ele Fang were experimental/overtuned in addition to ZKT snapshotting which honestly I don't even think needs explaining. It's annoying because if we nerf it on the spot people will be pissed but if we push it to another patch it becomes an established build. Anyways, I hope you can integrate some of the claw playstyle into the build and still enjoy it as the claw changes as a whole are an improvement to the class.
MrIdegen
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Marco wrote:There seem to be several misconceptions / odd calculations regarding bat changes.

1st - Bats never had level 200 ways. Skills have a max level of 150.
2nd - The AR and velocity reductions on winged are negligible and it was reduced for the GDR. It's like you guys are factoring the -AR as a 20% dmg loss which is ?? They do actually have AR before you spec into the skill, y'know :roll:
3rd - Its a bat per 5 base levels, not 6. Mistake on my part for outdated notes. And yes you can pick spec for a 6th bat now. (edit: updated log)
4th - exactly because ppl didn't scale minion dmg, shadow dancer becomes significant. 500%+ dmg mult, in addition to stronger base dmg because you're maxing bats, and some free DS AND the doubled WDM. It's essentially another way except you don't have to cap it.

It's like people are being blinded by removal of ZKT exploits and not looking at the full picture. My suggestion: wait and try it out


Edit: also would like to clarify on the bat changes since this seems to be a guide dedicated to a pure bat build. The idea never was to have a full summoner assassin spec but rather have bats be a support feature from the claw tree. Why? Because there is no minion gear support, it doesn't fit the assassin archetype, you have to drop melee devotion, still require melee to summon, and so on. This "build" worked before because skills like Ele Fang were experimental/overtuned in addition to ZKT snapshotting which honestly I don't even think needs explaining. It's annoying because if we nerf it on the spot people will be pissed but if we push it to another patch it becomes an established build. Anyways, I hope you can integrate some of the claw playstyle into the build and still enjoy it as the claw changes as a whole are an improvement to the class.


Hi Marco,

I am sure the intention is right, however you are wrong about point 1.

With Zular and enough plus skills, ways went well above of 150 for bats (maybe it was not intended that they could but they actually did).

The remaining changes need some kind of adjustment in regards of skillpoints, attributes and playstyle but with these it could not really be pure bat build just like you say it was not even the intended way.

Cheers.
Splargh
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MrIdegen wrote:
Marco wrote:.

I think Marco means that although the tooltip stated that bats had +180 to ways, it actually was only 150, since skills can't go beyond 150 in median. Elemental Fangs tooltip was just lying to us.
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Marco
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MrIdegen wrote:Hi Marco,

I am sure the intention is right, however you are wrong about point 1.

With Zular and enough plus skills, ways went well above of 150 for bats (maybe it was not intended that they could but they actually did).


Skills cap at the same level as character level (99 in vanilla, 150 in mxl) so unless I'm missing something (i.e. desc was bugged), the cap was 150.
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Marco wrote:
MrIdegen wrote:Hi Marco,

I am sure the intention is right, however you are wrong about point 1.

With Zular and enough plus skills, ways went well above of 150 for bats (maybe it was not intended that they could but they actually did).


Skills cap at the same level as character level (99 in vanilla, 150 in mxl) so unless I'm missing something (i.e. desc was bugged), the cap was 150.


Might be the case, but definitely went over 150 on skill desc with elemental fangs maxed. Not that it matters anymore. :)
Neyhanis
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It did indeed show as higher then 150, I had level 180+ base level ways, but perhaps Marco meant that above 150 it brought nothing more? If that's the case, it would be quite a relief.
_________

Anyways, as enough people have pointed it out, we've rambled and complained too much before even trying and... as bleak as some things may look, that's an entirely right critic, so let's try to start theorycrafting this and try it out !

I'll probably still try it out as a starter and adapt the guide once I did. As a melee+summoner hybrid.

Despite what marco said, I feel they still need some +%minion AR at high level (it makes a huge difference, or at least it did in the previous patch). Having to max batstrike will probably lessen the need for +%minion life so not much should be needed. Probably some +minion damage too, since I'll try the shadow dancer route (I don't think the nerfed ways are worth it at all.. losing both a ton of damage and the pierce means that IF you max them (spending a ton of points), you'll still do really little damage on ubers or very high-end content. I think i'd rather try full phys, or rather mostly phys and perhaps some leftover points into ways for a bit of bonus bat damage (as for the sin's damage, its definitely full phys/mag. without a lot more pierce for the sin's damage, it wont work and we can't afford it, already stretched thin)

But now the real problem, or rather difficulty, is about the character's survival. The statbuild is going to change to either fulldex or at least 3/4 dex, for both damage and blocking purposes. Finding enough room for +all skills, +dex, +%dex, +minion life/damage/ar ; means it's going to be difficult to add either +vit or +life.


Weapon:
Dreamweaver
Dreamweaver
Wrist Blade (Sacred)

(Assassin Only)
Required Level: 100
Required Dexterity: 341
Item Level: 105
Innate Lightning Damage:
(40.0% of Dexterity)
Queen of Blades: +2500 Lightning Damage to Main Projectiles
+(4 to 6) to Assassin Skill Levels
Adds 300-450 Lightning Damage
-(15 to 25)% to Enemy Fire Resistance
-(15 to 25)% to Enemy Lightning Resistance
+100 to Strength
+100 to Vitality
Maximum Fire Resist +1%
Maximum Lightning Resist +1%
Socketed (3)
or
Dark Maiden's Talons

Dark Maiden's Talons
Assassin Claws

'FulMhal'
Runeword Level: 110
Enemy Fire Resistance is Reduced by Lightning Pierce at 25% Efficiency
(75 to 125)% Bonus to Attack Rating
+750 Fire Damage
Adds 450-300 Lightning Damage
+(30 to 40)% to Fire Spell Damage
-(15 to 20)% to Enemy Elemental Resistances
(11 to 15)% to All Attributes
Maximum Lightning Resist +1%
+(150 to 200) Life on Melee Attack
if going elem but I'm not sure it's worth it considering the poor Bat-elem-scaling. I'd rather go phys and use
Arihan's End
Arihan's End
Blade Talons (4)

One-Hand Damage: (8 - 9) to (25 - 31)
(Assassin Only)
Required Level: 11
Required Dexterity: 84
Item Level: 17
Dexterity Damage Bonus: (0.13 per Dexterity)%
5% Chance to cast level 4 Crucify on Melee Attack
5% Attack Speed
+(16 to 20) to Maximum Damage
+(61 to 90)% Damage to Demons
+(24 to 40)% Enhanced Damage
+(71 to 100) to Life
Fire Resist +(21 to 25)%
Socketed (1)
One-Hand Damage: (22 - 24) to (52 - 64)
(Assassin Only)
Required Level: 29
Required Dexterity: 120
Item Level: 33
Dexterity Damage Bonus: (0.13 per Dexterity)%
10% Chance to cast level 14 Crucify on Melee Attack
15% Attack Speed
+(26 to 35) to Maximum Damage
+(121 to 150)% Damage to Demons
+(58 to 75)% Enhanced Damage
+(121 to 150) to Life
Fire Resist +(31 to 35)%
Socketed (2)
One-Hand Damage: (55 - 60) to (108 - 123)
(Assassin Only)
Required Level: 49
Required Dexterity: 232
Item Level: 54
Dexterity Damage Bonus: (0.13 per Dexterity)%
15% Chance to cast level 24 Crucify on Melee Attack
25% Attack Speed
+(41 to 50) to Maximum Damage
+(181 to 210)% Damage to Demons
+(92 to 109)% Enhanced Damage
+(181 to 225) to Life
Fire Resist +(41 to 45)%
Socketed (2)
One-Hand Damage: (71 - 76) to (136 - 152)
(Assassin Only)
Required Level: 57
Required Dexterity: 456
Item Level: 90
Dexterity Damage Bonus: (0.13 per Dexterity)%
20% Chance to cast level 29 Crucify on Melee Attack
30% Attack Speed
+(51 to 60) to Maximum Damage
+(211 to 240)% Damage to Demons
+(109 to 126)% Enhanced Damage
+(251 to 300) to Life
Fire Resist +(46 to 50)%
Socketed (3)
early on and
Legio Di Manes
Legio Di Manes
Scissors Katar (Sacred)

One-Hand Damage: (134 - 187) to (208 - 272)
(Assassin Only)
Required Level: 100
Required Dexterity: 485
Item Level: 105
Dexterity Damage Bonus: (0.13 per Dexterity)%
20% Chance to cast level 20 Thunder Hammer Nova on Melee Attack
Adds (40 to 70)-(110 to 150) Damage
Adds (50 to 75)-(100 to 150) Magic Damage
10% Life stolen per Hit
+(110 to 160)% Enhanced Damage
(1 to 10)% Deadly Strike
(1 to 10)% to Dexterity
Socketed (3)
or
Stonefist

Stonefist
Assassin Claws

'SilQor'
Runeword Level: 100
+5-10 Damage per Character Level Above 138
5% Chance to cast level 7 Thunder Wave on Melee Attack
+2 to Assassin Skill Levels
Adds 105-160 Damage
(10 to 15)% Life stolen per Hit
+200% Enhanced Damage
10% Deadly Strike
-50 to Dexterity
+(100 to 125) to Vitality
Physical Resist -5%
Cannot Be Frozen
later on.
Dawn
Dawn
Weapons

'Zol'
Runeword Level: 100
10% Chance to cast level 32 Celerity on Kill
45% Hit Recovery
(301 to 500)% Bonus to Attack Rating
+(172 to 200)% Enhanced Damage
75% to Strength
75% to Dexterity
35% to Vitality
75% to Energy
+80 to Mana
60% Gold Find
+(2 to 4) to Light Radius
(dmg, ar, stats) might be an option, but just nerfed (only +35% vit not 75)

Shield/Offhand:
Zayl's Temptation
Zayl's Temptation
Bladed Shield (Sacred)

Defense: 2181 to 2604
Chance to Block: 5%
(Assassin Only)
Required Level: 100
Required Dexterity:
1100
Item Level: 120
Regens 20% Life Over 5 Seconds Upon Taking Weapon Damage
+(3 to 5) to Assassin Skill Levels
1% Base Block Chance
Adds 150-250 Fire Damage
Adds 150-250 Lightning Damage
Adds 150-250 Cold Damage
+(14 to 20) to Crucify (Assassin Only)
Enhanced Weapon Damage -30%
Slow Target (15 to 25)%
+200% Enhanced Defense
Maximum Elemental Resists +1%
1% Reanimate as: Random Monster
Requirements +100%
Socketed (6)
for the regen,
The Doom Gong of Xiansai
The Doom Gong of Xiansai
Aspis (Sacred)

Defense: (3146 - 3539) to (3672 - 4131)
Chance to Block: 5%
(Assassin Only)
Required Level: 100
Required Strength:
687
Required Dexterity: 698
Item Level: 105
2% Chance to cast level 12 Thunder Slam on Melee Attack
1% Base Block Chance
Adds (10 to 40)-(50 to 100) Damage
(10 to 20)% Life stolen per Hit
+(140 to 170)% Enhanced Defense
10% to Strength
20% to Dexterity
Requirements +25%
Socketed (4)
for damage, or even a Shieldcraft, and if you can,
Eternal Bodyguard
Eternal Bodyguard
Totem Shield (Sacred)

Defense: (1668 - 1876) to (1932 - 2173)
Chance to Block: 5 to 6%
(Assassin Only)
Required Level: 100
Required Dexterity: 527
Item Level: 120
+3 to Assassin Skill Levels
(1 to 2)% Base Block Chance
30% Cast Speed
25% Block Speed
+20% to Spell Damage
-20% to Enemy Fire Resistance
-20% to Enemy Lightning Resistance
+(140 to 170)% Enhanced Defense
20% to Dexterity
20% to Energy
Physical Resist 10%
Socketed (6)
.

Armor:
Thelema

Thelema
Body Armors

'LewIuHel'
Runeword Level: 110
+4 to All Skills
55% Cast Speed
+(80 to 95)% to Summoned Minion Damage
+(200 to 250)% to Summoned Minion Attack Rating
+(172 to 200)% Enhanced Defense
+(120 to 150) to Vitality
15% to Vitality
+(101 to 125) Mana when Struck by an Enemy
or
Goetia Plate
Goetia Plate
Full Plate Mail (Sacred)

Defense: (8467 - 9339) to (10376 - 11445)
Required Level: 100
Required Strength: 700
Item Level: 120
+3 to All Skills
+1 to Maximum Necromancer Minions
+(151 to 200)% to Summoned Minion Life
+(51 to 75)% to Summoned Minion Damage
+(172 to 200)% Enhanced Defense
+100 Life Regenerated per Second
+750 to Life
+375 to Mana
-4 to Light Radius
Socketed (6)
probably

Helm:
Rathma's Blessing

Rathma's Blessing
Circlets

'OrtGlaThulGla'
Runeword Level: 100
+(2 to 3) to All Skills
+50% to Summoned Minion Life
+25% to Summoned Minion Damage
+50% to Summoned Minion Resistances
Lightning Resist +25%
Cold Resist +50%
+10 Cold Absorb
(15 to 20)% Magic Find
is amazing, and now the minion dmg will benefit more then before. Early on/before,
Lavadome
Lavadome
Helm (4)

Defense: (78 - 89) to (115 - 131)
Required Level: 4
Required Strength: 29
Item Level: 7
+(0 to 1) to All Skills
+(41 to 60)% Enhanced Defense
+15 to Vitality
(3 to 5)% to Vitality
+(81 to 120) to Life
Fire Resist +(11 to 30)%
Socketed (1)
Defense: (300 - 334) to (391 - 435)
Required Level: 22
Required Strength: 57
Item Level: 25
+1 to All Skills
+(71 to 90)% Enhanced Defense
+30 to Vitality
(6 to 10)% to Vitality
+(121 to 160) to Life
Fire Resist +(31 to 50)%
Socketed (3)
Defense: (753 - 825) to (970 - 1062)
Required Level: 39
Required Strength: 201
Item Level: 46
+(1 to 2) to All Skills
+(101 to 120)% Enhanced Defense
+45 to Vitality
(11 to 15)% to Vitality
+(161 to 200) to Life
Fire Resist +(51 to 70)%
Socketed (4)
Defense: (1191 - 1290) to (1519 - 1645)
Required Level: 48
Required Strength: 402
Item Level: 81
+2 to All Skills
+(131 to 150)% Enhanced Defense
+60 to Vitality
(16 to 20)% to Vitality
+(201 to 240) to Life
Fire Resist +(71 to 90)%
Socketed (4)
+a lot of MO is still pretty good.

Gloves:
Kali
Kali
Gloves

'LumKo'
Runeword Level: 48
15% Chance to cast level 13 Fire Splash on Kill
+2 to All Skills
+15% to Summoned Minion Resistances
-214 Defense
5% to Strength
Maximum Fire Resist +4%
Fire Resist +25%
with a lot of MO and then later on
Blackjade's Legacy
Blackjade's Legacy
Leather Gloves (Sacred)

Defense: 470 to 477
Required Level: 100
Required Strength:
250
Item Level: 105
Shadow Refuge: -1% to Enemy Fire and Lightning Resists per Base Level
+(0 to 2) to Assassin Skill Levels
+(100 to 250) to Life
+(50 to 150) Life on Melee Attack
Requirements -50%
Socketed (4)
for its life and especially if you want to go hybrid phys+elem.
Rogue Foresight
Rogue Foresight
Heavy Gloves (Sacred)

Defense: 492 to 522
Required Level: 100
Required Strength: 525
Item Level: 120
+1 to All Skills
5% Deadly Strike
-10% to Strength
20% to Dexterity
Physical Resist 5%
Socketed (4)
for the dex and DR might do too.

Belt: ]
Truce
Truce
Belts

'Jah'
Runeword Level: 80
5% Combat Speeds
Stun Attack
Slows Attacker by 5%
+(172 to 200)% Enhanced Defense
Physical Resist 10%
(for DR) or Honorific Craft (stats and minion stuff) early on. Maybe a dexcraft later, or some other SU such as
Black Void
Black Void
Heavy Belt (Sacred)

Defense: (3060 - 3442) to (3304 - 3717)
Required Level: 100
Required Strength: 625
Item Level: 120
20% Attack Speed
Adds 10-15 Damage
(10 to 15)% Life stolen per Hit
Slow Target 10%
+(140 to 170)% Enhanced Defense
10% to Strength
10% to Dexterity
Target Takes Additional Damage of (25 to 50)
30% Magic Find
Socketed (2)
(great stats) or
Champion of the Triune
Champion of the Triune
Plated Belt (Sacred)

Defense: 5209 to 6598
Required Level: 115
Required Strength: 665
Item Level: 120
Ethereal (Cannot be Repaired)
6% Chance to cast level 1 Force Blast on Melee Attack
5% Chance of Crushing Blow
5% Deadly Strike
+200% Enhanced Defense
+(100 to 1000) Defense
Elemental Resists -20%
Physical Resist 5%
Socketed (2)
(amazing proc for fast attackers)

Boots: Shrine craft, probably DEX or minion-related, with +2 assa skill levels.

Rings: +1 skill rings, any. Ideally with minion life or damage, or hp, or str/dex/vit (str and dex are requirements so it fine), or even mf%. Alternatively,
Der Nebelring
Der Nebelring
Ring

Required Level: 110
Item Level: 105
+(20 to 30)% to Summoned Minion Life
+15% to Summoned Minion Damage
+1000 Defense
+400 to Life
Physical Resist (4 to 6)%
+(40 to 50) Life after each Kill
+2 to Light Radius
is great here too, good minion stuff and needed defensive stats

Amulet: Any summonner ammy with +3/4 skills, maybe an oskill like lightning arena for defensive purposes. I also like something like
Locket of Dreams
Locket of Dreams
Amulet

Required Level: 100
Item Level: 105
+(2 to 3) to All Skills
+100 to Vitality
+(150 to 200) Life when Struck by an Enemy
25% Gold Find
+10 to Light Radius
, it feels good to help surviving in melee range when overwhelmed by small hits.

_____

Final theorycraft notes : Avoid is great, block will help, our defense is quite poor, hp isn't too big but we can find a few items with +hp. I believe the hardest thing to fill would be PDR.
Splargh
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Seems like Marco has a good point. I had a look on my 2.0 Batssin and Shadow Dancer on bats might actually be quite good next patch. Not 2.0-batsin good, but good nevertheless.
With supermaxed batstrike they get 1.5k phys dmg with only 110% minion dmg. This means their base dmg is around 700. With the ewd from Shadow Dancer + minion dmg items we should be able to reach 900% ewd on them, turning their 700 into 7k dmg. Now add the deadly strike, improved AI, 1 extra bat and doubled wdm modifier and they should pack quite a punch. Probably even worth lvling with them, which was not really an option in 2.0 before lvl 90ish.

edit: And all that with fewer skill points than before with ways
edit2: Their base dmg can ofc be different after patch. Max lvl is now 20 or 25 supermaxed, down from 25 and 30 respectively. In addition, the stats could have been straight up modified.
Splargh
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Neyhanis wrote: ... Having to max batstrike will probably lessen the need for +%minion life so not much should be needed. ...


You didn't max batstrike in 2.0? How did you keep them alive in labs? My bats died pretty quick in lab6+ on setups in which I didn't max them.
Got them to survive up to lab 8/9 by maxing batstrike.
Marcel
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My bats do great in lab with 1 lvl in batstrike. I use goetia plate with 200% minion life. %AR is absolutely a must for endgame content. I found you wanted 30-40k accuracy for schosglen to feel alright. There reason we didn't take % minion damage in the past is that it doesn't scale ways damage.

The minion damage is visible in the skill tree (along with life) Right now, with lvl 1 bat strike (soft level 47 with 13% minion damage) the bats have 550 damage, so getting to 700 base at lvl 20 may be on point. That said, I'm not sure what your character is supposed to do for a main attack (not just for survivability). I tested every in-tree option (current batstrike, crucify. and noctule) and both are really bad. I tested most o-skills (sandstorm looks cool) that were reasonable to get. Charged strike was the best by far, but still far from good.

If anyone wants to test stuff, I have all the possible assassin weapons as I tested every hybrid assassin melee build I could find (they were all terrible, charged strike was the only skill that was remotely viable).

There are some other open questions and issues. First, the survivability loss from 2 levels of winged calamity is really big. They already started dying in higher tier maps (they have 40-50k hp in my mapping setup) and would die pretty regularly in scosglen, losing the %DR can really hurt them. However, the note says that they now inherit all passives. This may include melee devotion (super unclear). If so, 20% multiplicative DR + the option of phys DR from tenacity may restore some of that tankyness.

Overall, elemental is way better supported for attacks by assassins (blackjade + dark maiden's talons + ways = massive pierce), but this used to synergize with bats well (because of ways). Phys could be a possibility (Rebel + stonefist) but the attack issue still stands.