MXL: Sigma Announced

[King]

Yep. Mine is just a guess too. But what I think would work is this: when Marco leaves for summer he resets ladder with maybe basic changes. Releases test version of sigma (might just be median version with big changed, if core isn't done enough) then we can test sigma changes and have fun while Marco is away, he can come back see all the feedback all over; make their adjustments and implement it into the core of sigma, probably do a bit of private testing (or public) I don't know. And then maybe a ladder reset release around October. But I honestly don't know

[Taem]

Minion resists are vital to know, and when mo'ing for a summoner build, it's critical not to over stat hp over dmg and vice versa, so I'd argue that those stats are critical to a summoner build which was main reason I stuck with single player for plugy stats as opposed to pen and paper and calculator. Would be nice to have a page dedicated to summons info imo. I've always been rather fond of plugy and don't mind flipping through pages to find the info I need.

[Port80]

I was thinking is it good idea that after you got one char to lvl 120, when you make other char you have all waypoints open on it already so you can get to it end game faster bcs lets be honest, it is where the best fun is. I know you could do that in original D2 with some tool

[Marco]

Minion resists are vital to know, and when mo'ing for a summoner build, it's critical not to over stat hp over dmg and vice versa, so I'd argue that those stats are critical to a summoner build which was main reason I stuck with single player for plugy stats as opposed to pen and paper and calculator. Would be nice to have a page dedicated to summons info imo. I've always been rather fond of plugy and don't mind flipping through pages to find the info I need.

Of course minion res display could be a valuable stat to display. However, the value decreases due to the fact that the stat is highly dependant on the build you're playing. So while it's highly relevant for summoners, it's completely irrelevant for non summoners. I can understand where you're going at though. Knowing all stats is something cool to have and me as a player would like to have it too. However not necessarily is that reason enough to implement such information.


However when talking about game design, I think it's important to look deeper. And I feel whist and me are not quite on the same page yet. Of course we can do the obvious thing which is to add content we know people will like. Items, uberquests, etc. Do you think adding 10 more layers of uniques, and 50 new uberquests will make the mod grow? No. What you are doing here is basically keeping the players that are already there with "safe implementations" that are guaranteed to be approved by the community.


Median has never lacked content and never will. Hence why blindly adding more content is certainly not the key to push the mod to the next level. It is important to work on the aspects this mod is not doing so well. The biggest (fixable) problem median currently has is how newbie unfriendly it is. Sigma is granted to have TONS of new features that will make the existing median players extremely happy. My goal here is to focus on the players that are not here yet. And this implicates doing changes that will not necessarily be welcomed by the existing community (such as removing character orb). But I'm definetly going to take that risk.


Having explained my posture on the subject, I will come back to this specific change. If you add 4 pages listing all stats, that's cool. The more info the better right? I disagree. I think having only one page of stats is much more beneficial. You're basically telling the player: hey, out of all 400 stats in the game, we've decided to show you these 10 stats. So they are good. These stats are good. You should focus on these stats. This is a really useful insight and doesn't require a new player to spend hours reading the documentation or looking for guides in the forum.


And details like these are the ones that achieve a more intuitive game. You have to push useful information to a players brain because some people just want to play the game and succeed without having to go through a really extensive documentation and logic processes. Adding less amount of stats to the character screen makes it much more likely they'll remember something, compared to giving them a huge list of "stuff".


Now before anyone comes with the classic MXL player arguments of "if you dont read the docs you dont deserve to play the mod" or "idiots should stick with basic games like D3". Expanding the community is actually highly beneficial and bringing more people means more ideas, eventually better players as well, and much more.

[whist]

So, players will have to rely on counting stats from looking at every single items, skills descriptions, etc, in order to make the game more comprehensible for newbies? Newbies that are eventually getting more familiar with the game as well and will want to know how much bonus to life their minions gain eventually.

While I'm all for making the game easier to get started with (I myself remember starting on MXL2008 and being so confused), I don't think this specific change really achieves that. That's actually something that always lacked in D2, both in vanilla and MXL, not enough information about your characters. So much that hundreds of different tools & hacks were created by it's players to expand this. How many online calculator for this & that does this game have? While I do understand, and actually agree with your goal on making this mod more user/beginner friendly, I do not think this specific change would accomplish that.

Also, it would even be possible to implement hover popups explaining what each stats do. This could work. Not to mention strings implemented via D2Sigma.dll aren't limited to 256 characters like most of vanilla string implementations.

[AzureGladiator]

While I'm all for making the game easier to get started with (I myself remember starting on MXL2008 and being so confused), I don't think this specific change really achieves that. That's actually something that always lacked in D2, both in vanilla and MXL, not enough information about your characters. So much that hundreds of different tools & hacks were created by it's players to expand this. How many online calculator for this & that does this game have? While I do understand, and actually agree with your goal on making this mod more user/beginner friendly, I do not think this specific change would accomplish that.

I couldn't agree more! If there were a way to display the most relevant information on a main page, and the leftover stats on other pages, would you agree with that at least, Marco?

...maybe some sort of poll would be good for this?

[Marco]

So, players will have to rely on counting stats from looking at every single items, skills descriptions, etc, in order to make the game more comprehensible for newbies?

Bingo! Median isn't a game about economics, it's a hack an slash, and this is where I'm trying to get at.

You're trying to expand an aspect of the mod that is ultimately not what the game is about. It's not until you actually understand well all stats and mechanics that you start caring about numbers. Someone who starts playing MXL wants to use items that are fun, skills that look good and feel powerful. You don't care about doing maths and calculations all the time. It's not what the game is about. You want to level up and kill monsters, and most of the times you'll end up using the equipment you find, and the game should work if people want to play it this way.

The ability to make calculations and plan is certainly a good thing to have in the mod, don't get me wrong. But you don't want to force players to do this!

Newbies that are eventually getting more familiar with the game as well and will want to know how much bonus to life their minions gain eventually.

They want stronger minions, yes, this doesn't mean they actually give a shit about how much %minion health they have. My minions are weak? Ok I'll just focus more on getting some extra %minion health, or maybe I'll simply try a different minion. That's as simple as it gets. Numbers, again, are irrelevant.

not enough information about your characters

Again, not what the game is about. You're viewing the game from the standpoint of a veteran player who has access to all items and has beaten all uberquests and now wants to make his character the most efficient farmer.

So much that hundreds of different tools & hacks were created by it's players to expand this. How many online calculator for this & that does this game have?

And do you really think the majority of the players are using this tool, or only the 1% that regularly visit the forum and have played the mod for enough years to actually bother with it?

Also, do you think such tools are the result of an orchested movement from the community so these exist? Or maybe someone simply made them, and some people are like, oh that's cool.

Also, it would even be possible to implement hover popups explaining what each stats do.

Yes except even knowing what stats do doesn't really tell you which stats are useful. Also, I really want to believe that stats are self-explainatory and don't require further explanation or something is very wrong.

However, putting a limited amount of stats does actually give you a hint on which stats are useful (-%enemy res, I'm looking at you). And this is what I'm trying to accomplish here. Make this feature actually something that is beneficial for newcomers, rather than the meticulous. That's how you get the most of it.

[Marco]

While I'm all for making the game easier to get started with (I myself remember starting on MXL2008 and being so confused), I don't think this specific change really achieves that. That's actually something that always lacked in D2, both in vanilla and MXL, not enough information about your characters. So much that hundreds of different tools & hacks were created by it's players to expand this. How many online calculator for this & that does this game have? While I do understand, and actually agree with your goal on making this mod more user/beginner friendly, I do not think this specific change would accomplish that.

I couldn't agree more! If there were a way to display the most relevant information on a main page, and the leftover stats on other pages, would you agree with that at least, Marco?

...maybe some sort of poll would be good for this?

I know the outcome of such a poll. Hence why I tried to explain that I'm not coming from the standard community players posture (and by the way, this forum is a minority of the total playerbase. It doesn't necessarily reflect what everyone would want).


Last clarification on the subject: I'm not against showing all stats and whatnot. I think it's cool, as I mentioned before. I'm against giving it such a high relevance by putting it on the character screen. I think this should be simple and straight forward. Maybe all stats could be listed if you click a button that says "full details" or so, and then you get a list of all stats your character has. But I would do it in a simple way, no complex GUI or anything, just a popup and the list. People who actually care could have the option to check it, but you wouldn't be pushing all that gibberish to someone who doesn't really know what's going on, unless they intentionally want to see it.

[whist]

Maybe all stats could be listed if you click a button that says "full details" or so, and then you get a list of all stats your character has. But I would do it in a simple way, no complex GUI or anything, just a popup and the list. People who actually care could have the option to check it, but you wouldn't be pushing all that gibberish to someone who doesn't really know what's going on, unless they intentionally want to see it.

Well, that's kinda what multiple pages achieves. Doesn't it? I kept all vanilla stat screen' stats on the first page (with a few little additions/improvements) kinda for this.

[AzureGladiator]

Yeah, that's what I meant when I said "other pages". As long as in some shape or form it's there, I'll be happy. But I know I'm biased... the decision is yours.