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Ekital
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ParticuLarry wrote:
Scalewinged wrote:
ParticuLarry wrote:
MUS01 wrote:Btw, barbarian "mage" can finally arises to the top. You cast Eagle stance and then you move forward...


Looking at the top frame rates for casting with literally any weapon for barb, I doubt that. Minimum is 8 frames, which pits him on the very bottom of speedrun material.


You forgot dualwield... there it's 7 frames and very easy to obtain from spirit guide alone (just 120 FCR needed). the problem is.... caster barb is too much oskill based and there's very limited oskills can be stacked from armor parts only. But still he will have much more potential now. Esp with ene/str factor rework where you don't need to focus on these stats
PS: Also he was a thing in (pre-)Ultimativve... Also it's purely not "speedrun-build" but more it's fun|unusual-build. Me personally don't fkin care about speedrunning, i'm playing for fun only and nothing more.


Look, I never denied you can't play this for fun. What I denied was that caster barb will rise to the top. Because that ain't happening with a character whose only skill-based source for spell caster stats is a minion (Bloodlust & the passive) that you can't even make use of 100% without focusing heavily on minion gear and with a top frame rate of 9 for almost all weapon choices that have good spell oskills. Being able to use the RMB for spells is such a minor factor of qol only, that I especially doubt this single change will bring spell caster barb to the top.

Thanks for pointing out the frame rate on dual wield. The last time I checked the caster frames I only looked at the cast animation for non-dual wielding as I only noticed that bad cast rate when I tried a hammertime barb half a year ago, being shocked that no other weapon could even get close to the caster animation of Paladin/Sorceress.

I do have to correct myself though: If you don't dual wield, the animation takes 9 frames, not 8 as previously mentioned, which in total is almost half the damage you can dish out with sorc/pala.

MUS01 wrote:
ParticuLarry wrote:
MUS01 wrote:Btw, barbarian "mage" can finally arises to the top. You cast Eagle stance and then you move forward...


Looking at the top frame rates for casting with literally any weapon for barb, I doubt that. Minimum is 8 frames, which pits him on the very bottom of speedrun material.


Well you can get 200% fcr without gear from spirit guide. Not so bad. Also, with RM + SG you can get crazy defense with cheap gear.

But, I was meaning that would be easier than before use the spells, in specific 2 spells. I think that in old version all the speels should go in the LMB while RMB was perma on ES. If you need change the spell, then you needed change the button and after that click the attack.

Now, you cast ES, AND you get 2 spells at your pleasure.


200% fcr is useless if your minimum frame rate is simply too bad to dish out lots of damage quickly. Compare that to sorceress, who can have 5 frames per animation with staves with the same amount of fcr. Even in the best case scenario (dual wielding), you'll still take 40% more time to do the same amount of damage. In the worst case scenario (not dual wielding) you'll take 80% more time to dish out the same amount of damage, which means unless you get your oskills from non-weapon slots or from dual-wielding, you lose 80% of the damage other characters can dish out.

And let's be honest, the fcr from the passive is rather weak if you consider that speeds are one of the easiest things to come by, especially when you use caster gear, which gives you almost always 100 fcr already. Add to that charms, that give another 20%. (if Idol of Vanitys all combat speeds include cast rate, then that means 35% fcr) Yes, it gives you more leeway to focus on other stats, but considering how few other important caster stats barb has to offer, this looks rather meek, namely +skills, and -enemy resist and spell damage (I don't know the scaling of bloodlusts spell damage portion, hence the last might be a wrong assumption of mine) which just comes on top of barb having bad cast speeds overall.

As for using 2 specific spells. I don't see a problem with switching skills on LMB. All my melee barbs so far used that and it never bothered me when it comes to selecting the correct skill. Especially when you consider that you can switch skills while casting/attacking. I'm sure it does make a difference since you can play less stressful now, but that difference isn't big enough to improve caster barb as much as you stated.

Tl/dr:
The builds that profit the most from that change are melee builds, since you're able to contineously attack with RMB now and don't loose out on the buffs, making the whole gameplay more fluid for those melee builds as you don't miss any frames while misclicking/walking in a slightly wrong direction. And the single build that profits the most from this change is naginata assassin. Of course that heavily depends on whether stances after the change work like attack buffs like Vessels (not doing anything after you switch weapons) or whether they work after buffing yourself on switch and then switching weapons. If the latter is the case, that even improves all assassin and paladin builds since they have such an easy time to get bear stance on switch. Even Sorceresses can get eagle stance easily that way.




Umm you can hit 7 frames with just 120 FCR with 2 Kriegs.
I'm not sure what you mean that caster barb will not rise to the top? I'm pretty sure that War Cry Barb and Avalanche Barb are pretty top tier when it comes to farming.

Credits to Mortimer:
Daniel1204
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morphed wrote:Lockdown is a great mechanic , it prevents people from cheesing the bosses, and reseting boss hp aint an option because most bosses summon adds and if you fail and he regens full hp it will be impossible to kill with more adds if you cant kill him under lockdown timer , what you’re suggesting makes it even harder and pointless for noobs

what about just resetting the whole area like what they did with arreat summit? if you don't kill all the barbarians, portaling out will cause them to be back in the stone and you'll have to wake them up and fight again. everything is back to the state just like I'm entering this area the first time. I'm sure there's a much easier and noob friendly way than lockdown.
ParticuLarry
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Ekital wrote:Umm you can hit 7 frames with just 120 FCR with 2 Kriegs.
I'm not sure what you mean that caster barb will not rise to the top? I'm pretty sure that War Cry Barb and Avalanche Barb are pretty top tier when it comes to farming.

Credits to Mortimer:


1) How can something "rise to the top" as the original statement said, when it's already there? Especially with a minor qol change that merely improves the fluidity of the gameplay, but doesn't add much aside from that. I'd say the energy factor change buffs mage barbs more than the stance change, but that buffs any mage build, so it's whatever.

2) War Cry is a special case that was made for barbarian only. It's impossible to replicate with any other class and as such we can conclude that it was balanced around a 7 frames breakpoint.

3) If you take any spellcaster oskill that every class can use, would you rather use it as a paladin, where you get lots of spelldamage, free -35 enemy resist and a 5 frames breakpoint? Or would you take barb, which has free fcr but still makes you end up with a minimum breakpoint of 7? In case the oskill can't be found on weapons you can dual wield, that minimum breakpoint would be 9, making you 80% worse than other classes with the exact same gear.

The only useful oskill that can be found on crafts aside from War Cry, where I'd agree barb is superior is Brimstone as I mentioned before, since you can get it from 3 sources if you dual wield it. There are other things like Pentagram from an SU, but unless you get the oskill from a weapon that you can dual wield, barb will not be the best choice and as such not at the top. This however has nothing to do with the stance change as was originally stated, which is what I said I doubt originally. This single change won't make caster barb top tier. That's all I said.

Look, it all boils down to 2 question: Is barb the best choice for using spell caster oskills? And does the stance change really improve caster barbs so much that it outclasses any other oskill caster now?

If you answered both questions with "no", we can say that we agree and further discussion is just nit-picking arguments when the original questions I answered in my original post still stand true.
Keter
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morphed wrote:
Berkabus1 wrote:
Daniel1204 wrote:plz get rid of lockdown mechanism...
just reset the boss' health


I agree ! This is so tedious.. and also as a noob you have to Walk for Ages just to die like 15 times.. feels like a punishment more than something that makes it a challange.

Lockdown is a great mechanic , it prevents people from cheesing the bosses, and reseting boss hp aint an option because most bosses summon adds and if you fail and he regens full hp it will be impossible to kill with more adds if you cant kill him under lockdown timer , what you’re suggesting makes it even harder and pointless for noobs


i hate loockdown - it transform quest into something terrible and nasty, cause severe stress. Every time i feel this when started.

Any element in games should not cause such stress and such emotions. Must be fun.
kaioken
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Still no word on an update to sound? I'm tired of doing Fauz and Labs with sound off just to avoid game-breaking lag. Otherwise, great update and I can't wait to jump back in!
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MIlesPrower8
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Now that my weapons will be unbalanced I may have a chance to defeat Deimoss :^
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Marco
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kaioken wrote:Still no word on an update to sound? I'm tired of doing Fauz and Labs with sound off just to avoid game-breaking lag. Otherwise, great update and I can't wait to jump back in!


Not in the forseeable future sadly, we've tried a couple of optimizations but the sound engine is just a pile of garbage and needs to pretty much rebuilt.
cnlnjzfjb
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With so many SCs in the inventory late game, it seems messy and takes up a lot of inventory room. And sometimes, when I doubt that I might omit one, it takes a while to check which SC I missed. Will we get a special room just for keeping SCs? Like another “SC cube” which is just for SCs in the future to keep inventory clean and tidy late game?
redicomerade
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Changes i would like to see:

-toraja great runes- i really like the concept of that place and challenge, really, but for 1-5 in and out, for God sake, not grinding to get shad, and you know rng is a b**ch. And there is many items desired to chars from that runes, shad boots, shad druid bow, auhe belt, armor etc.. Maybe move them to other ubers?

-more rewarding labs- i dont proceed to far in that place(t12) , but felt and see others say that too, that there should be more rewards since this is ultimate end place. Maybe enable all drops great/elemental runes? Just a liitle bit more chance to effigies from regular mobs(didnt drop even one)?

Thank you for great work, hype hype for druid, hunter and poison was my favorite so cant wait for Changes and make a new ones!
Berkabus1
Balrog
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redicomerade wrote:Changes i would like to see:

-toraja great runes- i really like the concept of that place and challenge, really, but for 1-5 in and out, for God sake, not grinding to get shad, and you know rng is a b**ch. And there is many items desired to chars from that runes, shad boots, shad druid bow, auhe belt, armor etc.. Maybe move them to other ubers?

-more rewarding labs- i dont proceed to far in that place(t12) , but felt and see others say that too, that there should be more rewards since this is ultimate end place. Maybe enable all drops great/elemental runes? Just a liitle bit more chance to effigies from regular mobs(didnt drop even one)?



Thank you for great work, hype hype for druid, hunter and poison was my favorite so cant wait for Changes and make a new ones!


Agreed!!!! Toraja is the worst place/quest in the whole game. The amazons just run around and make the whole thing so irritating that i give up after charm. Its not fun, not challanging, not anything. Just a booring and stupid part of a superfun game ! So please rework toraja. Or put the quest for great runes in some other place .