Any other rolling caps to be aware of aside from DMG and MANA?

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Kronos
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Hi all

Quick question: Are there any rolling caps to be aware of aside from DGM (rolls at 83k?) and Mana (rolls at 32k)???????
What about if you spec up for dastardly high DEF or AR? Some of these values can get VERY high with the right gear.

Health is not supposed to roll over, even though visually it does. Is that really correct? I have spec'd up to over 64k health to check. But you can still get killed by the high bosses in one hit.(Yes I know high health would come at a price when you gear/spec for it but even so it is demoralising seeing 50k+ health vanish in one hit).

Now a whinge:
I still find this whole rolling caps for DMG thing a nightmare at high spec. It is very easy for people to say "go out and whack something and if you do no damage, you have rolled" but it is not always so easy to test, especially against the bosses, and it is painful overhead to playing the game. It seems that with some of the 1-hit big damage spells, you have to actually pull back and not put so many points to it, or not gear up so that the cap is not exceed. What's the point? It's bad enough all the time you can spend on crafting a top-notch Runeword with the neverending re-rolling and lucking without that on top of it. :cry:
Whinge over.

cheers!
Kronos
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whist
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life and mana will rollover (I mean really rollover, not only visually on the client) at 8,388,607. As for defense and attack rating they should be able to go up to 2,147,483,647. Although I think attack rating would be susceptible to rollover, since as far as I remember it is multiplied by 100 somewhere in the defense calculations, but that would make the rollover a little over 21.4m, so that's nothing to really worry about.

As for the damage cap, there is no precise rollover point. 83k (more precisely 83,886) is just the "no roll-over" safe line. Whether it will rollover depends of many factors, such as target's resistances, your elemental pierce, etc.
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noal
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whist wrote:life and mana will rollover (I mean really rollover, not only visually on the client) at 8,388,607. As for defense and attack rating they should be able to go up to 2,147,483,647. Although I think attack rating would be susceptible to rollover, since as far as I remember it is multiplied by 100 somewhere in the defense calculations, but that would make the rollover a little over 21.4m, so that's nothing to really worry about.

As for the damage cap, there is no precise rollover point. 83k (more precisely 83,886) is just the "no roll-over" safe line. Whether it will rollover depends of many factors, such as target's resistances, your elemental pierce, etc. For example, if you used a cold spell, on a monster with 5% cold resistance, and using no pierce, you could safely go up to 1,677,721 damage. The true damage cap (rollover point) is at 8,388,607 as well.


Hmm this is quite new to me.
So the 83k damage cap is not true in most cases? Rollover means you deals reduced damage, or no damage at all?
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whist
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noal wrote:Hmm this is quite new to me.
So the 83k damage cap is not true in most cases? Rollover means you deals reduced damage, or no damage at all?


what happens is, the damage displayed in-game is actually divided by 256 from what it really is in the code. 1 damage is 256 damage in the code. The game handles damage as signed integer, for which rollover point is at 2,147,483,647. Now, in various calculations during the damage processing, the damage is multiplied by various amounts, for calculations like resists%, absorbs%, pierce% ... so, say you have 100,000 damage, which in the code translates to 25,600,000. Now let's say somewhere in the damage processing it gets multiplied by 100, so it becomes 2,560,000,000 .... Oops, we just went over 2,147,483,647, and the value rolled over.

That means depending on various data, such as resists, absorbs, pierce, etc, you will be able to deal 1m damage to a monster without any problem, while another monster may rollover your damage whenever you go over 83,886 damage. 83,886 is the safe limit because damage will never get multiplied by more than 100 in the damage processing. and ((83,886 * 256) * 100) = 2,147,481,600 ... pretty much the closest you can get to the rollover point.

You should watch your spells base damage too. Classes with high damage spells and that can reach high amounts of +spell dmg% may be susceptible to rollovers. Say you have a spell that deals 21,000 damage without any +spell dmg% modifier. Now let's say you get +400% to spell damage. Let's apply the spell damage to your spell base damage: 21,000 * 256 = 5,376,000. Now, 5,376,000 * 400 = 2,150,400,000 ... Oops, we just went over the rollover point again.
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noal
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whist wrote:
noal wrote:Hmm this is quite new to me.
So the 83k damage cap is not true in most cases? Rollover means you deals reduced damage, or no damage at all?


what happens is, the damage displayed in-game is actually divided by 256 from what it really is in the code. 1 damage is 256 damage in the code. The game handles damage as signed integer, for which rollover point is at 2,147,483,647. Now, in various calculations during the damage processing, the damage is multiplied by various amounts, for calculations like resists%, absorbs%, pierce% ... so, say you have 100,000 damage, which in the code translates to 25,600,000. Now let's say somewhere in the damage processing it gets multiplied by 100, so it becomes 2,560,000,000 .... Oops, we just went over 2,147,483,647, and the value rolled over.


Interesting.
I still have no idea how the damage can gets multiplied by 100 though, when considering those factors such as res, pierce, absorb. The only roll over case I can think of is like the case with AR - it gets multiplied by 100 somewhere due to some weird calculating mechanics.
But now I know that rollover means dealing no (or negative) damage , that makes detecting rollover much easier. Also from the above explanation, I guess that rollover is actually really rare so don't have to worry much about it
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whist
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noal wrote:I still have no idea how the damage can gets multiplied by 100 though, when considering those factors such as res, pierce, absorb. The only roll over case I can think of is like the case with AR - it gets multiplied by 100 somewhere due to some weird calculating mechanics.


Elemental pierce would be a good example. 100% pierce means your damage gets multiplied by 100 against a target that has 0% resistance. Percentages are calculated by doing this: ((value * percentage) / 100)
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noal
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whist wrote:
noal wrote:Hmm this is quite new to me.

You should watch your spells base damage too. Classes with high damage spells and that can reach high amounts of +spell dmg% may be susceptible to rollovers. Say you have a spell that deals 21,000 damage without any +spell dmg% modifier. Now let's say you get +400% to spell damage. Let's apply the spell damage to your spell base damage: 21,000 * 256 = 5,376,000. Now, 5,376,000 * 400 = 2,150,400,000 ... Oops, we just went over the rollover point again.


Oh shit, + 400% spell damage make the damage * 400 then divide by 100 later?

whist wrote:Elemental pierce would be a good example. 100% pierce means your damage gets multiplied by 100 against a target that has 0% resistance. Percentages are calculated by doing this: ((value * percentage) / 100)

KK I think I get it by now. Damn you stupid integer calculation :x
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noal wrote:Oh shit, + 400% spell damage make the damage * 400 then divide by 100 later?


Yep. ((value * percentage) / 100).
So, with 400% spell damage, ((spell base damage * 400) / 100).

In sigma the percentage calculation function was replaced to use signed 64 bit integers, so the rollover point is now at 9,223,372,036,854,775,807 :lol: You would need a damage of 360,287,970,189,640 to reach the rollover point :shock:
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noal
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In short u ll never have to care about rollover in Sigma :mrgreen:
Thank you Whist for a very detailed explanation
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whist wrote:what happens is, the damage displayed in-game is actually divided by 256 from what it really is in the code. 1 damage is 256 damage in the code. The game handles damage as signed integer, for which rollover point is at 2,147,483,647. Now, in various calculations during the damage processing, the damage is multiplied by various amounts, for calculations like resists%, absorbs%, pierce% ... so, say you have 100,000 damage, which in the code translates to 25,600,000. Now let's say somewhere in the damage processing it gets multiplied by 100, so it becomes 2,560,000,000 .... Oops, we just went over 2,147,483,647, and the value rolled over.


Thank you for the in-depth explanation however something is bothering me. Some spells roll over and do no damage really easily - for example Merkabah and Boneyard. However others seem to pass this threshold and still do good damage. I was wondering if you can shed some light on why that is.

For example let's take a look at an uhc pala posted on the forums by t4v. His char sheet damage is 108k - 131k. I counted the pierce on his gear and when you add the sunstone, sunless bird & astro trophy you end up with 201% lightning pierce. So according to what you said, even if he deals minimum damage only, his damage will become 27,648,000 in the game code then it gets multiplied by a 100 because he has enough pierce and it becomes 2,764,800,000 so technically it should roll over and deal 0 damage all the time and yet as can be seen on his videos this is not the case.


whist wrote:Yep. ((value * percentage) / 100).
So, with 400% spell damage, ((spell base damage * 400) / 100).

In sigma the percentage calculation function was replaced to use signed 64 bit integers, so the rollover point is now at 9,223,372,036,854,775,807 :lol: You would need a damage of 360,287,970,189,640 to reach the rollover point :shock:


The maths of this formula seem incorrect btw. If my spell deals X base damage and I have 100% increased spell damage, using your formula my spell will now deal (100X)/100 = X. I.e. the same as the base damage.

I'm pretty sure the correct formula should be Value * [1 + (percentage/100)].