Windform theorycrafting

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aerial
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So I've been casually playing barb for few days, messing around with "new" things.

Windform is that barb whirlwind skill, that added tcd, poison damage and life on striking.
First of all, whirlwind vs median tier of density = bad. As main aoe skill at least. I think nobody argues that. If you take endgame geared barb to hatred uberquest with high density (duncraig for instance), even if you 1-shot at 2fpa with ww, it still sucks, killing speed is low. Ppl usually notice it once they hit sewers with their new barbs :) The reason why is simple. WW can hit one enemy in its range at any given time. So if there is many enemies around, real aoe skills that hit everything vastly outperform ww. Less enemies, the better it works.

Image

Now the point is, there is interesting mechanics with that poison damage component.
When you WW, char sheet dps is increased by that poison damage, to all skills.
Most popular suggestion would be: use fortress before windform. When you windform, arrows carry poison damage.
Important to note, weapon poison damage, carried through fortress arrows will not be as high as windform direct hit, not only because 3/2 weapon vs 3/4, but also fact that projectiles poison wont be affected by spell damage. In reality, damage you get for projectiles, is higher than maxed snake/eagle, which takes tons of points.

The problem with fortress is, it isn't great aoe. Skill tends to hit same monsters multiple times, arrows don't pierce. It is pretty bad at spreading that poison.
So I tested other things. First was, stempede. If you stampede and then ww immediately after, following wave of axes that hit for 3/2, turns out even if you ww while they hit, they dont carry poison damage. Bummer.
Another thing - sor. If you use sor, and then ww.. it does work. It probably has to do with fact that new rocks appear while you ww (same as fortress and new arrows). You get 3/2 poison aoe with sor.
Now that alone makes it really interesting for leveling, or like really cheap char that can clear some difficult areas. You can have bear stance/runemaster/windform, and at same time deal sor poison aoe, higher than if you had maxed snake stance and synergy.
I was able to clear fauztinville destr with really bad gear this way (level 100 runewords and some random crafts).
There is another little thing that helps, and some ppl might not know. Blood hatred heal on melee strike, works with whirlwind. Whirlwind dual wield hits for 2fpa at last breakpoint, so you get heal that is comparable/better than bh itself (that hits twice as doubleswing clone). By better i mean, it can't be interrupted, you heal in spot where normally you could get stunlocked. I could do azmodan at level 100 this way, because while wwing though these monsters and healing so fast, you literally cannot die there.

I'm aware this is nowhere near farming speeds we are looking for, simply not competitive, if some builds just wipe multiple screens in seconds.
But maybe there is a way to expand this idea.
Next thing I tried is to look for more aoe.
Skill like rebound works (if axes split when you ww they carry poison). But similar to fortress, no pierce - poor effect for poison spread. Which is weird, because snake/repounder was a thing, so it should be ok.
Another thing, wyrd. 1/2 is a problem here, but it does work to some extent. Can't be used with bear.
Spikenova on kill.
Nimmenjushin + whirpool = massive aoe. But still limited by wdm of the skill.
Thundergod nova also works, if it goes off while you ww, happens sometimes. 1/2 weakens it by a lot, but gives you the idea about potential of this combo.

Using this build combined with snake stance is possible, for even more poison damage, at cost of defense. Maxing snake/eagle/windform will consume most of our skill points.

Another thing that could have potential with this, once you take care of aoe is to abuse that life on striking from ww. If you could fit in atmg on kill, heal would be great.

So I'm looking for your ideas, what do you think about this. What kind of skill/proc combo would make this even better? I didn't have sssu to test so my experience is limited :)
Edited by aerial 8 years.
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A New Start
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I've been mesing around with barb for a few days too and here's my solution for the AoE problem: Soulshatter. Yes you can gain this skill by using the Black Dog [Secret Runeword]. The skill has very high AoE and 3/4 WPD so it can spread poison quite decently. Currently I don't use it together with windform but I think since the shockwave "generates" multiple time when you use the skill, it might work. The gear is pretty simple,Black Dog and crafted armours /TU/SU with at least 1 poison rune in them, due to how passive poison like windform and snake stance works, the damage will greatly increase. About skillplan, sMax Snake stance and put enough point in Eagle to archive 8 sec regen. The playstyle is simple, summon -> soulshater -> windform while using snake stance, switch to eagle stance when you're low on HP
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About the poison rune, isn't dps being added and duration averaged?
So like, if your windform poison is 6s, and you add another poison source that lasts 1s, it will create new duration of 6+1/2 = 3,5s, but dps will stay the same (i count poison rune dps as irrelevant compared to snake/ww)?
I think for that reason messing with duration is only good, when your dps dealer has very short duration, and if you add weak poison at long duration, new average will cause extending the combined duration.
Snake already makes windform poison last less because snake is 2.4s vs 5.8 windform.

poison damage faq
The interesting thing about passive poison damage is when there is more than one source of it. What happens then is that the damage per second is added and the duration is added, and then averaged.
Example:
Your snake stance does 100 poison damage per second over 5 seconds.
You have a pair of gloves that do 10 poison damage per second over 9 seconds. First you add the damage per second=100+10=110. Then you add and average the duration = (5+9):2 = 7. Now in order to calculate the total damage, all you need to do is 7*110=770. As you can see, the not so impressive gloves, increased our total poison damage by 54%.


Also does anyone understand LCS i posted in 1st post?
There is sor with base strength that is 3/2 weapon damage. When i use ww, sor shows 450k, but windform shows 680k. Both skills are 3/2 shouldn't it be the same?
Edited by aerial 8 years.
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aerial wrote:About the poison rune, isn't dps being added and duration averaged?
So like, if your windform poison is 6s, and you add another poison source that lasts 1s, it will create new duration of 6+1/2 = 3,5s, but dps will stay the same?
I think for that reason messing with duration is only good, when your dps dealer has very short duration, and if you add weak poison at long duration, new average will cause extending the combined duration.
Snake already makes windform poison last less because snake is 2.4s vs 5.8 windform.

Also does anyone understand LCS i posted in 1st post?
There is sor with base strength that is 3/2 weapon damage. When i use ww, sor shows 450k, but windform shows 680k. Both skills are 3/2 shouldn't it be the same?


the damage per second will increase according to the new duration, for example, I deal 1000 psn damage in 6 second, it means my DPS is 1000/6 = 166.67 poison damage per second. Now I equip an item with "add 100 psn damage in 1 second" the total duration will be (6+1)/2 = 3.5 and the total damage will be 1000 + 100 = 1100. So, we will deal 1100 psn damage in 3.5 second which translate to 1100/3.5 = 314.3 poison damage per second. Which is an increase in damage
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I don't think this is how it works.
Check this out: http://docs.median-xl.com/MXLU_vXVI_Doc ... oison.html

1. Poison duration does not affect poison damage per second. In other words, if you do 100 damage per second over 10 seconds, your total damage would be 1000. If you add 5 more seconds, your damage per second won't decrease to 66 (1000:15=66). Instead you will do 1500 total damage (100*15=1500). This is a very good thing that many people don't understand so they try to avoid increased duration. The truth is, it can really help if you want to kill an enemy in 1 hit.


Shortening duration = less damage total.
Dps adds, but poison rune adds only 200-400 damage, and snake or ww damage is for example for me 86-134k. So yea you gain 200-400 to dps, but by cutting the duration by half you lose nearly half the total damage.

In your example you increase dps roughly x2 by cutting duration.
They way it should be calculated, your 166 dps + 100 dps x 3.5s, so per second is 266. 266 x 3,5s total damage is 931. Previous damage was 1000 in 6s, so total more damage but over 6s. Just keep in mind that your 2nd source of damage (100 per second) is comparable to your 1st source of damage, thats why added dps is significant. If you take poison rune (200-400 over 1s), compare it to whirlwind damage lategame (130k over 6s), damage added per rune is completely irrelevant. All it does is cuts duration.
You make mistake in spot where you add total damage 1000+100 and calc dps based on new duration. You should add DPS (per second so 166 not 1000), not total damage. Because then shortening duration would increase dps.

tldr: in your example damage from rune is comparable to your snake/ww damage, and in reality it is nowhere near (1000x less).
Edited by aerial 8 years.
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poison runes suck, they cripple passive poison duration which results in much lower total dmg. the dps increase is way too small to be worth it
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Windform is a really nice skill that is overlooked by most barbs. If you max it out it and stack spell damage + at least 150 pierce it becomes an amazing single target ability against non-poison immunes. Also it's by far the safest boss killing skill for hc since you can just hit once then run away while the monster dies.


In terms of mechanics:
- When you start a WW you will get 2 hits within the first 8 frames of the animation no matter your attack speed

- From then on you can increase the frequency of the hits down to a minimum of 4 frames. This works exactly the same as WW does in clod at the moment. So only WSM and attack speed on the weapon (wIAS) matters. The speed calculation is: WSM - wIAS. The max speed breakpoint for 1h weapons (and therefore dual wield) is -34

- In median this skill only works with dual wielded weapons. While in windform whenever there is a hit check BOTH weapons will roll for a hit simultaneously. To ensure that you are always at the fastest attack speed possible you need to make sure both weapons individually cover the above breakpoint.

- As was already mentioned, the poison damage on the tooltip is added to ALL your attacks while you are in a spin and is affected by their respective WDM multipliers.

- Finally due to the way the skill is coded in Median it has another "additional feature" (some may call it a bug). A huge amount of flat physical damage is added to the Windform hits only. This damage is NOT affected by the 3/2 WDM and grows very rapidly with skill level. To the point where I'm pretty sure it reaches the overflow threshold, then does nothing, and with enough points in the skill it even rolls back to 0 and starts dealing damage again.

- So as you are maxing this skill out for the poison benefits at some point (whenever this hidden added dmg + [your weapon's phys dmg*1.5] becomes more than 83k, but less than 166k) it will cokcblock your physical damage entirely.
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That's interesting.
But my main interest is finding way to spread this poison through aoe, as single target doesn't really matter much, especially for farming areas with large densities. Using this as boss killer or totem killer - works, and that was probably first thing people try, besides using this for movement only (ureh/vizjun).
If barb could get access to some sort of passive hit generator, like faerie fire on druid, which makes su war axe proc so well without any effort, that probably would be enough.
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Well in order to do something like that the only thing that comes to my mind - gorefest. Since you want to ww the other skill has to be longer duration for more convenient play. So gorefest should do that since it can spawn on gloves, armor and weapon. More skills in gorefest gives longer duration of that damaging area of guts and blood if i recall corectly. Plus with ww you can lure mobs on/off it depending on situation.
Cons - 1/2 wep dmg and a bit laggy when you spam a lot of it.
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I mean, If you read 1st post, you'd know that we are looking something that beats SOR, that already works with it, and has 3/2 mod :)
I think gorefest would be a downgrade.

So far things that give most aoe are:
- nimmenjushin axe + whirpool to start proc chain
- soulshatter secret rw scepter, big aoe nova
- wyrd

edit:
using gorefest to proc nimmenjushin? probably worse than whirpool