The curious case of barbarian melee/ranged skills

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trollkin
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Howdy,

to begin with, I'd like to say that this is NOT another thread complaining about the recent nerfs. In fact,I think the vast majority of them were kinda needed and I'm okay with them; maybe with the exception of Lion stance, but that's a topic for another discussion.

Rather, I'd like to address the somewhat weird situation in which the barbarian finds himself right now (and frankly, it has been that way for a while), in my view. So, to business, then (in no particular order):

1) The axe/sword tree dichotomy feels strange and somewhat contrived - certain skills are pretty much just carbon copies as far as design/intended use goes, for instance Stormblast and Iceburst, and so the only thing a player is left with is finding the ones which are superior, as the case usually is (see Tempest vs. Forked Lighting, Deadalus vs AB, you name it...). It is also boring.

Also strange - why does Blood Hatred/SoR work with any melee weapon, while Thunder Slam, a fairly important CC skill, requires an axe?

2) A few one-point wonders are OK, but with the barbarian, too many core/build-making weapon skills provide little to no incentive for players to sink more points in them, either because they offer no interesting synergies or just have bonuses which are not worth the investment:

Iron Spiral - 6 pts to remove cooldown; ggthxbye.
Stromblast - 1pt. Zero incentive.
Windform - LoS increase on a skill that doesn't hit all that rapdily isn't worth the skill points, LaK or LL are much better options. On a side note: why was this skill brought back; vanilla Whirlwind nostalgia proved too overwhelming? :-)

Deathgaze - 6 pts to remove cooldown, ggthxbye.
Iceburst - 1pt. Zero incentive. A random idea - how about, let's say, an extra burst every 8 base levels?
Thunder Slam - 1pt. Absolutely zero incentive, though here it's probably OK because it's a situational skill.
SoR - 1pt. Zero incentive. As a long-time enemy of SoR being a regular barbarian skill, rather than an oskill, I will, once again, go on to state that it should be replaced by something else. In my experience, SoR has been, ironically enough, one of the best WDM procs, even for a barbarian, whether gained from jewels or weapon affixes. Nevertheless, as an actual active skill, it feels very situational and somehow inappropriate, maybe simply for the fast-paced gameplay of MXL as a whole. Also the very concept of the skill is dubious - if it was meant to be more of a support skill, why does it pretty much murder enemies once the rocks start falling, rednering the whole enemy speed debuff useless? As with Screaming Eagle, why would would I wait for something to cripple a small bunch of foes instead of focusing on crippling and damaging them instantly and simultaneously by other means?

3) The Throwing tree could use some fixing:

Bear claw just sucks Major League Balls - 1pt ONLY to unlock other throwing skills. Horrible even for single target damage, used to be useful for cheesing bosses by permastun IIRC, which was a stupid reason for the existence of a skill as well, even back then. Should be nothing more than an oskill.

Stampede - a cool-looking and useful AoE skill, spreading psn dmg + timestrike or other wdm procs with this thing seems enticing. However, it's just 6pts, pretty much zero incentive other than that.

Rebound - the whole skill is just meh. Remember the good old days of the Kraken Rebounder - that still a thing? Anyhow, the necessity of something to bounce the initial throw against makes for a finicky gameplay. No substantial incetive of dumping more points here; also with the GD synergy, the skill seems interesting just for some long-range/offscreen chessing potential? I dunno, this is just an odd one.

Screaming eagle - another "meh" skill here. I've only really seen it used in some of the more difficult bossfights, reminds me of Hawk Talons from Median 2008, where they were pretty much only useful for cheesing summoning ubers. I think the survivability of the barbarian consists in other more reliable skills, this just feels extremely situational. In general, why would you run around targeting and debilitating monsters when you could have been just killing them or debilitating AND damaging them at the same time and passively, be it through Slows Target or whatever?

Overkill - apparently, this is where it's at for throwers right now. A very powerful skill overall, also rewarding because you have to learn how to aim it a little bit. Good AoE, in combination with LL and Str builds it also provides great survivability.


4) Amusingly enough, I can't help considering Fortress one of the best skills for a MELEE barbarian. Also, apart from Deathgaze, I mostly find myself using Ancient's Hand for single-target or dense pack extermination.
When an oskill is better than most of the regular skills, it just goes to show that something is rotten in the state of Denmark, I dare say.


So, what do you guys think about the whole "barbarian predicament"?
Edited by trollkin 4 years.
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ChuckNoRis
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trollkin wrote:Rebound Remember the good old days ?
remember when Rebound and Ricochet were working the other way around ? we used to have ricochet needing to be thrown at walls/solid objects , while rebound was working as the nowadays ricochet , but someone (Laz) decided to swap their mechanics.

i would not mind having that back .

regarding your other points , people have been complaining about 1-pointer attacks for a long time , while 6-pointers are no different besides the fact that you need to waste 5 more skill points for the same thing . this is not a good solution imo ,but we might expect a time when those skills will be reworked to actualy scale nice by hard points and make you wanna dump points there while sacrificing another spot where those points would have normaly went .

still , i don't think that this 1-pointers fixing (not just for barbs) will come any time soon , as imho there are more urgent matters to attend to .

or , if it is intended for them stay as 1 or 6 pointers maby we'll have them cap'ed at "x" points / next level you can dump a points is unlocked at "y" clevel (instead of once at every 6 levels) , something similar to druid's Symbiosis for having them at full power (-:

i believe that when you look at a skill that has a max of let's say 6/6 points to reach the max potential , it would solve the issue ,at least mentaly , compared to when you look at a skill that works the same , but appears as 1/35 . there are always doubts when you look at this , at least for new players , if maxing the main attack is realy a good or bad idea
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Ywinel
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It's not like barbarian problem only. Other classes have similar problems. It's not like these skills are not worth leveling(some are just not worth playing xd), there are just skills worth more.
Wolves are giving both offensive and defensive buff(2 skills worth lvling), same with daedalus , stance to pick of course, all Ultimates are OP and worth maxing, add some synergies, point for getting through/removing cd and you get only "leftovers" for your attack skill :p

Skill trees aren't perfectly balanced that's true. Buffs skills are easy way to balance classes in median, each class has set of them to pick and barb has a bit too many of them. It's still good because you have some good synergy in barbarian tree(he is one of the most OP classes...). There are classes with bigger problems with skill tree.

Trap sin is almost trapped in her trap tree :P (can't use spells, +limited to spell dmg +lack of penetration and you have closed not customizable class). Totem necro rework idea is conflicting itself a bit. With new way max totems works you must use all of them and focusing on one is less efficient. What's worse, number of points you can spend(after the passives) is usually enough for only one totem.
Conquest
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Well, if you ask me then all skills could be passive/buff, and active skills would be available as mystic orbs or jewels that can be purchased at vendors.
This is basically POE style of things. Works very well there, i don't see why it would not work in Diablo.

This can be done two ways.
First - all active skill jewels are +1 to <x> and assigned to innate skill pool, meaning they are always level 1 and unaffected by +to All Skills under any circumstance. Any scaling (such as base spell damage) is only through character level and/or energy factor.

Second - active skill jewels scale up as the game progresses, they start with +1 in Act 1 Hatred but later on you unlock more powerful versions, with say +24 at level 120. You could even have legendary versions of them drop in dimensional labs, granting even higher skill level. Of course these are carry1, cannot be stacked on one item for skill level 200 or sth.

These skill jewels could only be placed in weapons or shields with this guideline - 1H 3 sockets shields 3 sockets 2H 6 sockets. So any player will have 6 skill sockets available.

Unfortunately there is no way of implementing that massive 2000-skill monster tree from POE to get passives sorted out. Still, the idea of distributing your points into passives only looks nice to me (supplementing your main attack, e.g you could have passives with fire pierce, ofc you take this with a fire based main attack jewel)

This is how majority of builds are built nowadays anyway. Main attack often has 1 or 6 points into it, rest is dumped into buffs and passives.
B_ATAKY
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Conquest wrote:Well, if you ask me then all skills could be passive/buff, and active skills would be available as mystic orbs or jewels that can be purchased at vendors.
This is basically POE style of things. Works very well there, i don't see why it would not work in Diablo.

This can be done two ways.
First - all active skill jewels are +1 to <x> and assigned to innate skill pool, meaning they are always level 1 and unaffected by +to All Skills under any circumstance. Any scaling (such as base spell damage) is only through character level and/or energy factor.

Second - active skill jewels scale up as the game progresses, they start with +1 in Act 1 Hatred but later on you unlock more powerful versions, with say +24 at level 120. You could even have legendary versions of them drop in dimensional labs, granting even higher skill level. Of course these are carry1, cannot be stacked on one item for skill level 200 or sth.

These skill jewels could only be placed in weapons or shields with this guideline - 1H 3 sockets shields 3 sockets 2H 6 sockets. So any player will have 6 skill sockets available.

Unfortunately there is no way of implementing that massive 2000-skill monster tree from POE to get passives sorted out. Still, the idea of distributing your points into passives only looks nice to me (supplementing your main attack, e.g you could have passives with fire pierce, ofc you take this with a fire based main attack jewel)

This is how majority of builds are built nowadays anyway. Main attack often has 1 or 6 points into it, rest is dumped into buffs and passives.


I have better idea. No skills, no stats. Crosschair on the screen and 1st point view. Every player can buy AK or Colt.
Works very well for CS, i don't see why it would not work in Diablo. ;)
theage900
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colt in CS ;-|
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ChuckNoRis
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theage900 wrote:colt in CS ;-|
that's the nickname for the Maverick carabine , M4A1 (buying code B-4-3 for the Counter's )