MXL-2017 Belladona Elixirs (respec potions) monster drop only

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Solfege
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Necroglycerin wrote:
Solfege wrote:How big of an impact would there be if you could adjust your character's stat points (but not skill points) on-the-fly? Like, you upgrade your TUs or make a really good Craft with flat stat bonuses, and suddenly the extra points you've put into stat x aren't needed anymore and would be better used if you put them into stat y. Seems like it might be a handy feature, especially early on, to avoid having to do a full respec. But IDK what sort of abuse such a thing could lead to.


Just play SP with Plugy, problem solved :P

On a more serious, it really is a handy feature.

For the respecs, I really dont understand the fuzz about it. I basically read one guide and killed Baal with it, without having any other knowledge about game mechanis. But even if you don't read a guide, I am pretty sure you can get to the end of terror with just common sense and a little bit of time investment to run mephisto in each difficulty to get your TUs, so you can get some belladonnas and respec all you want.


Yes, SP/PlugY is where the idea came from. I was trying to look at things from a absolute noob first-time player's perspective. Let's be honest, no matter how thoroughly they think they've read through the docs/forum/guides, new players are gonna screw up during their first playthrough--a lot (can anyone here say they didn't?). Median has a high learning curve, especially if coming from something as mindless as D3. M2017 did a lot to address this, but people are still gonna overlevel their TUs; they're gonna find some random thing drop with a mod/proc/oskill they've never seen before and wanna try it out, but they won't have the stats to use it right then and there. So they'll foolishly waste their Akara respec just to adjust their stats, only to realize the new item is a pos for their build. Then they'll get frustrated because they'll feel like their curiosity was being punished. As Marco said, skill points are powerful in Median, so it absolutely should take an actual respec to reset them. But the ability to adjust stat points as you play seems like a decent balance between Marco's vision for respecs and allowing new players to indulge their curiosity. And as to losing gear to the strength bug, as Fumbles mentioned, that won't be a thing once the "no more character corpses" thing is worked out.

As to the drop vs. craft thing for Belladonnas, TBH, I don't really have a strong opinion one way or the other on this matter. I don't necessarily have a problem with this new format; however, it does make testing and experimentation kind of a pita. The mlvl 84+ drop restriction could be removed, allowing them to drop anywhere, but that would likely undercut what Marco is trying to do. I mean, at that point, they might as well be craftable again. IDK, just my thoughts.
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Solfege
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suchbalance wrote:
void wrote:look at this patch, where there arent all that many significant changes to ubers, and see that it doesnt make sense to limit the belladonnas at this point because apparently those changes have not been sufficiently implemented yet


You're joking right? Just some examples off the top of my head:

- Kabraxis: no longer one shots melee characters with broadside, balefire damage reduced (for melee again), desync removed, lag reduced, corpse recovery made easier
- Xazax: 0 unavoidable damage in the whole fight, no unavoidable damage in melee unlike Brach
- Astrogha: FO cast range reduced for melees, statue spawn rate reduced, teleport rate reduced, boss reduces caster damage but not melee/ranged WDM
- BPR: cows no longer one shot, you can kill safely without corner abuse and HC levelling is now not retarded
- Void: final battle rng deaths removed, pride awful curse removed + getting to him is easier
- All bosses: 35% max physical or magic resist compared to 85+ with heroic shield before

Melee\ranged WDM and phys & magic users are much more viable this patch on all ubers compared to the entire duration of Ultimative.

Viable doesn't mean "better than the previously best builds", that was never the goal. Clearly when one build is even 10% more efficient at clearing something min-maxers will always use it and everything else is deemed "trash" by comparison. It's impossible to make all builds equal without trivialising the content and/or losing variety in builds but it's something we definitely improved on and will continue to iterate on in the future,


Agreed. The fact a fking Melee Sorc can now do every Uber without a caster respec is proof of Suchbalance's point (pls don't nerf her, she's actually good now). These changes may seem minor when taken individually, but together they've had a profound impact on what's possible for builds that might otherwise have had no chance.
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Gekko64
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agreed, there's been huge improvements in this area with 2017 patch
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Crash
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Belladonnas are best found in tcows because of the smaller item drop pool and ease of clearing. It's not the only place and you should never really "need" to farm belladonnas. I test new builds all the time. I have almost a full inventory on a mule of belladonnas just in the case I should need them or a friend needs them. I don't actively look for them. I get 2-3 per game just from dest Tran, k3k, even toraja, and I don't farm terribly often. I don't have twenty mules of items like others. I've only been lightly farming for a few days trying to get some signers and shrines.

The only argument that exists here should be for hatred, and even that argument is bleh because all of hatred was adjusted to be more friendly to players, and the docs exist, along with many guides that let you know about having enough stats to wear gear when uptiering. And in the random chance that you're mid-end game and don't have enough elixirs, just ask people.

TLDR: pick up belladonnas whenever you see them.
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void
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suchbalance wrote:
void wrote:look at this patch, where there arent all that many significant changes to ubers, and see that it doesnt make sense to limit the belladonnas at this point because apparently those changes have not been sufficiently implemented yet


You're joking right? Just some examples off the top of my head:

- Kabraxis: no longer one shots melee characters with broadside, balefire damage reduced (for melee again), desync removed, lag reduced, corpse recovery made easier
- Xazax: 0 unavoidable damage in the whole fight, no unavoidable damage in melee unlike Brach
- Astrogha: FO cast range reduced for melees, statue spawn rate reduced, teleport rate reduced, boss reduces caster damage but not melee/ranged WDM
- BPR: cows no longer one shot, you can kill safely without corner abuse and HC levelling is now not retarded
- Void: final battle rng deaths removed, pride awful curse removed + getting to him is easier
- All bosses: 35% max physical or magic resist compared to 85+ with heroic shield before

Melee\ranged WDM and phys & magic users are much more viable this patch on all ubers compared to the entire duration of Ultimative.

Viable doesn't mean "better than the previously best builds", that was never the goal. Clearly when one build is even 10% more efficient at clearing something min-maxers will always use it and everything else is deemed "trash" by comparison. It's impossible to make all builds equal without trivialising the content and/or losing variety in builds but it's something we definitely improved on and will continue to iterate on in the future,

youre 100% correct, so i retract this point against belladonna drops.
not sure how i forgot about this :oops: , in fact i was ranting a lot about kabraxis/xazax being too easy now because you can just circle around him with a ranged char and he dies. i killed kabraxis with overkill mf setup very easily on stream and belial has been decimated by bojacs frostclaw totem in 0.02s (would not cry about an ultra weak heroic shield to at least make it slightly unpredictable with such an op build), so i took it as "mxl has been casualized", and frankly for ranged chars it really is too easy and something should be done about it, but now that you explain the reasoning behind those choices i can also see the credo is well-intended and can also appreciate the positive sides and clearly this improves the variety of viable builds for those ubers, so for that alone yes, that makes respecs less of a necessity for those ubers, without question
marioace
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Just wondering if anyone has had trouble finding these? I have completed up through terror baal in SP and currently doing fauntz for black road. I have yet to see a single one drop.
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marioace wrote:Just wondering if anyone has had trouble finding these? I have completed up through terror baal in SP and currently doing fauntz for black road. I have yet to see a single one drop.


Fauzt*

Run TCows. Easier to clear than Fauzt, faster, and likely a better drop rate. Terror Tran Athulua as well.
marioace
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L H wrote:
marioace wrote:Just wondering if anyone has had trouble finding these? I have completed up through terror baal in SP and currently doing fauntz for black road. I have yet to see a single one drop.


Fauzt*

Run TCows. Easier to clear than Fauzt, faster, and likely a better drop rate. Terror Tran Athulua as well.


OK, ty. I will give those a shot.
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void wrote: i was ranting a lot about kabraxis/xazax being too easy now because you can just circle around him with a ranged char and he dies. i killed kabraxis with overkill mf setup very easily on stream and belial has been decimated by bojacs frostclaw totem in 0.02s (would not cry about an ultra weak heroic shield to at least make it slightly unpredictable with such an op build), so i took it as "mxl has been casualized", and frankly for ranged chars it really is too easy and something should be done about it, but now that you explain the reasoning behind those choices i can also see the credo is well-intended and can also appreciate the positive sides and clearly this improves the variety of viable builds for those ubers, so for that alone yes, that makes respecs less of a necessity for those ubers, without question


Well the thing with Belial is that in his current form he is a rather silly fight. You either kill him in one second, or you jump in and out of town portals or you corpse run a few times to wear him down. When those are the only 3 viable tactics (rolling the solid middle map takes too long for >1 kill) buffing the boss will not lead to a fun experience, so he was intentionally left a bit weak. In the future he will get his own custom level (where you can hide behind stuff from nova for example) and then we can rework his skill set and make him challenging in a more fair way since he is, after all, one of the iconic villains of Sanctuary.

I think Kab & Xazax are ok in their current form. I disagree with Kab being easier - you could reliably kill him before with an Abyss sorc, for example, right as he spawned because you dealt 1m damage in the 1 second before his aura took effect, not to mention he couldn't even kill RC minions for a few patches. Xazax is mainly a dps race - if you go undergeared you're going to have a harder time managing all the adds, but once you have good damage he becomes easier.

Also on the topic of difficulty and new content - we do have some plans for a new "ultimate" tier uber to challenge the best players, since there hasn't really been any new hard challenge since the Void. Which has now been out for some years and has been worked out. However making such content is sadly actually super unrewarding from our perspective:
  • Probably 95% of the player base will never even give it a serious try and just buy the rewards. And while we don't mind people trading for rewards, it makes you think whether you would rather not want to invest all those hours into content that everyone will play and be able to progress instead.
  • The harder the uber is supposed to be the longer it takes to make, and the more new and complicated/interesting mechanics you introduce the more you have to spend time after release fixing bugs and addressing player cheeses. For example the time spent on the Void could have easily been used to create at least x2 "Duncraig style" ubers.
  • Players react negatively to adversity. To make a challenging uber in Median in its current form with all the free TP in and out of the zone, TP holding, invulnerability skills, infinite deaths grind, fast player speeds, shitty D2 AI, ancient netcode etc. etc. you really have to try to shit on the player as hard as possible (pardon my French). And what is the result of such a challenge? Feedback like: "cancer uber", "waste of time", "very unfun", and my personal favourite - "this isn't hard just annoying" :lol: Makes you think if it's worth your time at all doesn't it?

And one last point, before I peace out of this thread and stop derailing it. Regarding melee v ranged since a few people have asked me and I've seen it discussed on the forums. Once we tune ubers to the point where we are happy with how it is to play melee there, we can start to tone down range builds instead by making them do less damage or reducing their defensive options and so on but we are not there yet. It's definitely not an easy problem to address since every other arpg in existence has it to some degree, and I think among them Median is actually far from the worst offender.
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Comparing this game to POE, Stat points are like the passive tree, and Skill points are like skill gems. Maybe just have skill point reset and then stat point reset cost currency.