Holy Paladin Discussion

Holy Melee was never an amazing single target killer. You need a lot of an investment into hammerstrike to even dent them, and even then it can sometimes feel like you're hitting like a wet noodle. Getting Whirlpool on boots is probably the solution for this issue later on though.

To all those complaining about cast-every-5-sec, really why do you bother posting in this topic?

If you want dumbed down passives and brainless spam builds, practically every other MXL build fits in this category. Just go and make ele druid, get easy charms, then farm with pouncezon after you get some basic gear and make sure to post some sick cotws in screenshot thread.

I love the 5-second cast thing now that I've used it for a bit. It does a nice bit of extra damage and my god it is sexy.

Segolia wrote:Holy Melee was never an amazing single target killer. You need a lot of an investment into hammerstrike to even dent them, and even then it can sometimes feel like you're hitting like a wet noodle. Getting Whirlpool on boots is probably the solution for this issue later on though.

Old dragon melee could oneshot heroics with dragon oath.

Plague seems really gimped, I tested with slvl 50 something and the average damage was like 7k/s. With sots + poison stone, -100 res and retaliate, that would be about 25k/s. Merkabah alone did 85k/s alpha without needing any -res. Maybe it's balanced around having every single charm in the game (or filling every single socket with poison stones), but that would make the skill useless.

Combine that with VoR nerf and lost crit strike, it seems holy melee has lost a lot of dps and gained a free timer/colosseum in return (which is not that great for melee since since any decent killspeed will mean you move forward too fast for colosseum to matter).

I'm pretty sure the only way to make current dragon melee rival the old one is to focus on boosting a proc to ridiculous damage, or using the new spells while melee is a hybrid mana stealing sidekick.

You can now also use demiurge and euphoria for damage boost since rapture is no longer 100% mandatory due to lionheart velocity debuff. Maybe try meteor swarm?

ChuckNoRis wrote:i have halved my hours of sleep last night to test the holy paladin and the impressions so far are :

- the melee got a nice boost from having plague in early game . i am fine with the merkabah removal ;
- the bonuses from incarnation only make up for the removal of the Character orb untill mid-end game when it is great to have .
- Removing the slow from lionheart is great
- i am still not impressed by the holy caster . it still makes me wana go for apocalypse / other oskills as main attack . Higher AOE please !
- the dependency of having casted solar flare first so you can "do x" / "benefit from y after" is reducing the fun . it gives you no choice but to use it , even as a 1-pointer . gives me no reason to put more than 1 point into it . maby decrease the timer with hard points or something? give it higher aoe ?

* i will update the Tristan holy melee (old school retaliator) miniguide in my compilation and then add a new holy melee in a few days . I had this new holy melee build and a holy caster one done since last year but had no time for a release ; the holy caster will still wait untill better tree changes will occure (or maby just go for oskills)

my 2 cents

after a few more hours of testing :

- decided not to waste points into incarnation in early-mid game since you don't need that extra leech to survive hatred or terror . Vindicate , some Losim and LaK is all you need to stay alive - you got retaliate there ffs , you are not getting touched more than once and after that everything dies so ... no more than 100 points to dexterity along with

Featherclaw

and

Zealot Rush

Zealot Rush
Light Plated Boots (4)
Defense: (67 - 78) to (102 - 119)
Required Level: 6
Required Strength: 31
Item Level: 10
5% Attack Speed
(10 to 40)% Movement Speed
(11 to 25)% Bonus to Attack Rating
+(21 to 40)% Enhanced Defense
(3 to 5)% to Dexterity
1% Reanimate as: Random Monster
Socketed (1)
Defense: (248 - 281) to (338 - 384)
Required Level: 24
Required Strength: 62
Item Level: 36
10% Attack Speed
(10 to 40)% Movement Speed
(41 to 55)% Bonus to Attack Rating
+(41 to 60)% Enhanced Defense
(9 to 11)% to Dexterity
2% Reanimate as: Random Monster
Socketed (2)
Defense: (613 - 685) to (817 - 914)
Required Level: 41
Required Strength: 218
Item Level: 51
20% Attack Speed
(10 to 40)% Movement Speed
(71 to 85)% Bonus to Attack Rating
+(61 to 80)% Enhanced Defense
(15 to 17)% to Dexterity
3% Reanimate as: Random Monster
Socketed (3)
Defense: (944 - 1044) to (1247 - 1378)
Required Level: 50
Required Strength: 436
Item Level: 85
30% Attack Speed
(10 to 40)% Movement Speed
(86 to 100)% Bonus to Attack Rating
+(81 to 100)% Enhanced Defense
(18 to 20)% to Dexterity
4% Reanimate as: Random Monster
Socketed (4)

, +2x

Ring of Truth

Ring of Truth
Ring
Required Level: 20
Item Level: 20
25% Block Speed
15% Hit Recovery
(31 to 50)% Bonus to Attack Rating
Slows Attacker by (3 to 5)%
(11 to 15)% Bonus to Defense
+2 to Light Radius

, + jewels that also provide attack rating + mo'ing the weapon with some of it too , made incarnation look like "meh , not worth wasting points into it ; having to use solar flare every 5 seconds is too annoying anyway" . the full gearing remained the one stated in the Tristan miniguide in the previous patch

- got to level 90 , received the morf - first tought was "Legion Commander"

) renamed Tristan miniguide 8-)

- i will change the skillplan as soon as the link will be updaded
- morf gave MOAR stats->MOAR dexterity->MOAR attack rating-> Incarnation still not needed (8k attack rating in hatred , arround 13k in terror with the stuff mentioned above)
- just got to mid destruction and did a few uberquests in my way , updated the early gear to the mid gear

i stoped for today and will continue with the rest tomorow

i've seen in some previous posts/discussions that the holy melee has problems killing single targets ... WHAT ? :shock:

there are many options you can acces that rape any single target (Flamestrike anyone ?

The Flying Anvil

The Flying Anvil
Great Maul (4)
Two-Hand Damage: (14 - 17) to (19 - 41)
Required Level: 11
Required Strength: 117
Item Level: 29
Strength Damage Bonus: (0.16 per Strength)%
20% Attack Speed
+(1 to 20) to Maximum Damage
+(24 to 43)% Enhanced Damage
+1 to Hammertime
+(16 to 25) to Strength
Elemental Resists +(11 to 15)%
(11 to 15)% Bonus to Defense
Socketed (2)
Two-Hand Damage: (42 - 47) to (73 - 98)
Required Level: 29
Required Strength: 168
Item Level: 40
Strength Damage Bonus: (0.16 per Strength)%
40% Attack Speed
+(21 to 40) to Maximum Damage
+(64 to 83)% Enhanced Damage
+(4 to 8) to Hammertime
+(36 to 45) to Strength
Elemental Resists +(16 to 20)%
(21 to 25)% Bonus to Defense
Socketed (4)
Two-Hand Damage: (93 - 102) to (153 - 193)
Required Level: 48
Required Strength: 326
Item Level: 67
Strength Damage Bonus: (0.16 per Strength)%
60% Attack Speed
+(31 to 60) to Maximum Damage
+(104 to 123)% Enhanced Damage
+(10 to 14) to Hammertime
+(56 to 65) to Strength
Elemental Resists +(21 to 25)%
(31 to 35)% Bonus to Defense
Socketed (5)
Two-Hand Damage: (109 - 119) to (209 - 262)
Required Level: 55
Required Strength: 640
Item Level: 85
Strength Damage Bonus: (0.16 per Strength)%
80% Attack Speed
+(41 to 80) to Maximum Damage
+(124 to 143)% Enhanced Damage
+(15 to 20) to Hammertime
+(66 to 75) to Strength
Elemental Resists +(26 to 30)%
(36 to 40)% Bonus to Defense
Socketed (6)

,

Cinadide's Forge

; Hammerstrike+

Intifada

Intifada
Paladin Clubs, Paladin Maces, Paladin Hammers
'AmnKo'
Runeword Level: 48
8% Chance to cast level 8 Shower of Rocks on Melee Attack
Adds 80-120 Magic Damage
+(87 to 114)% Enhanced Damage
(6 to 10)% Chance of Crushing Blow
+(16 to 25)% to Summoned Minion Damage
5% to Strength
Poison Resist +30%

,

Shattered Stone

, Some Xis runewords , many SU's --- there are so many options )

ChuckNoRis wrote:i've seen in some previous posts/discussions that the holy melee has problems killing single targets ... WHAT ? there are many options you can acces that rape any single target (Flamestrike anyone ?
The Flying Anvil
The Flying Anvil
Great Maul (4)
Two-Hand Damage: (14 - 17) to (19 - 41)
Required Level: 11
Required Strength: 117
Item Level: 29
Strength Damage Bonus: (0.16 per Strength)%
20% Attack Speed
+(1 to 20) to Maximum Damage
+(24 to 43)% Enhanced Damage
+1 to Hammertime
+(16 to 25) to Strength
Elemental Resists +(11 to 15)%
(11 to 15)% Bonus to Defense
Socketed (2)
Two-Hand Damage: (42 - 47) to (73 - 98)
Required Level: 29
Required Strength: 168
Item Level: 40
Strength Damage Bonus: (0.16 per Strength)%
40% Attack Speed
+(21 to 40) to Maximum Damage
+(64 to 83)% Enhanced Damage
+(4 to 8) to Hammertime
+(36 to 45) to Strength
Elemental Resists +(16 to 20)%
(21 to 25)% Bonus to Defense
Socketed (4)
Two-Hand Damage: (93 - 102) to (153 - 193)
Required Level: 48
Required Strength: 326
Item Level: 67
Strength Damage Bonus: (0.16 per Strength)%
60% Attack Speed
+(31 to 60) to Maximum Damage
+(104 to 123)% Enhanced Damage
+(10 to 14) to Hammertime
+(56 to 65) to Strength
Elemental Resists +(21 to 25)%
(31 to 35)% Bonus to Defense
Socketed (5)
Two-Hand Damage: (109 - 119) to (209 - 262)
Required Level: 55
Required Strength: 640
Item Level: 85
Strength Damage Bonus: (0.16 per Strength)%
80% Attack Speed
+(41 to 80) to Maximum Damage
+(124 to 143)% Enhanced Damage
+(15 to 20) to Hammertime
+(66 to 75) to Strength
Elemental Resists +(26 to 30)%
(36 to 40)% Bonus to Defense
Socketed (6)
,
Cinadide's Forge
; Hammerstrike+
Intifada

Intifada
Paladin Clubs, Paladin Maces, Paladin Hammers
'AmnKo'
Runeword Level: 48
8% Chance to cast level 8 Shower of Rocks on Melee Attack
Adds 80-120 Magic Damage
+(87 to 114)% Enhanced Damage
(6 to 10)% Chance of Crushing Blow
+(16 to 25)% to Summoned Minion Damage
5% to Strength
Poison Resist +30%
,
Shattered Stone
, Some Xis runewords , many SU's --- there are so many options )

Yeah those are great against astrogha, kabraxis, zorun tzin, maggot fag, jday, akarat, baal memory and so on... you get the point.

cowking wrote:Old dragon melee could oneshot heroics with dragon oath.

Plague seems really gimped, I tested with slvl 50 something and the average damage was like 7k/s. With sots + poison stone, -100 res and retaliate, that would be about 25k/s. Merkabah alone did 85k/s alpha without needing any -res. Maybe it's balanced around having every single charm in the game (or filling every single socket with poison stones), but that would make the skill useless.

Combine that with VoR nerf and lost crit strike, it seems holy melee has lost a lot of dps and gained a free timer/colosseum in return (which is not that great for melee since since any decent killspeed will mean you move forward too fast for colosseum to matter).

I'm pretty sure the only way to make current dragon melee rival the old one is to focus on boosting a proc to ridiculous damage, or using the new spells while melee is a hybrid mana stealing sidekick.

You can now also use demiurge and euphoria for damage boost since rapture is no longer 100% mandatory due to lionheart velocity debuff. Maybe try meteor swarm?

- plague dps is much higher than older plague
- merkabah was trash, you could theorycraft on it, but looking at skill mechanics, i can tell you it didnt do much. not even mentioning cap issues
- vor nerf was minimal
- critical strike on phys-based chars would actually lead to ocassional damage cap rollovers, i believe. I don't quite remember now but I do recall holy melee having damage overflow issues last time i played it
- lionheart debuff gone is a huge boost, and the debuff was one of the reasons holy melee was never played in the first place
- indeed maxing incarnation and making use of spell based procs is one of the most efficient ways to play hybrid
- huge stat boost from dragonknight, and perma attack speed boost from it, plus weapon choice flexibility

Also there are tons of misconceptions about solar flare.

a) you can't spam it? like any other ND skill, this doesn't need to be spammed. Spamming flamestrike over a monster for 5 seconds accomplishes the same as one cast of solar flare, except:
- solar flare has more damage
- has less ND
- the range is much bigger
- you can do stuff meanwhile (such as freezing mobs with breath, omg science)

b) self-lock instead of skill timer is a big deal. This means you can teleport into solar flare, which you wouldn't be able to do with other skills. It's not just colosseum that matters. It just makes the skill much more efficient in several situations.

c) for the people that cant bother to cast it every 5 seconds, there's a reason why terror strike was added to the crafting pool, derp. You get a 20s duration boost instead and you can spam all dragon skills which are op.

Also comparing builds doesn't really accomplish that much. I'm not saying holy melee is much better than before, I think it's about at same level in terms of damage considering retal change. I always stated that holy paladin was great - but if noone plays it, what's the point? Sometimes fresh air can make a build played, and, even if the spec is in some scenarios weaker, it doesn't matter much if ultimately the build gets played. The main reasons why it wasn't played was because it was overshadowed by unholy, mainly due to superbeast & tainted blood, and the slowness of lionheart. Tainted blood was rebalanced, you get better breakpoints from dragon, dragonheart no longer slows you down, you get free stats, etc.

Wait, flamestrike have ND? I always thought that spamming with increase the damage rate tremendously (and i thought it was explosion type, not missiles type, like hailstorm / rain of bombs)

I always wonder what if colosseum did bonewall like effect like those ... i forgot teleport bonewall elite near anya
Will it make retaliate more easier or more harder to play (enemy trapped with you, but you cant move out till wall collapse)

Last time i played holy melee, my problem was I feel like lacking skill points to max both single target spell (hammerstrike) or aoe (retaliate + hard point) which in the end solved by the OP tantrum..... (all point to lionheart for %EWD)
I still think hammerstrike is limited because of the skill mechanic (1 hit = 1 aoe + pray for crit) as opposed to many other single target (1hit = multiple missiles = multiple proc + hits) *goes double check*
Yerp, still not a fan of maxing hammerstrike build.

cowking wrote:Old dragon melee could oneshot heroics with dragon oath.

Funny that I remember you ranting about how Holy Melees can't deal with single targets.

I started playing with new holy tree and I'm having a blast. Some serious mana issues before I can get unique skull helm. But that Hydra copy is bit of a disappointment. And Plague dmg is really low, the time I waste to spread it with Retaliate is worthless compared to other new dmg spells.
Still, I enjoy playing it, can't wait to get him to end-game.

I played holy melee till lvl 66 on sp on p8 and it was great, its fun, dps is good and gameplay is different compared to other builds and that is something i like the most tbh. Will play him on tsw as well ofc

Great work on the holy tree Marco i like it :thumb: