Σ 1.6 Bugs&Feedback

immortal barb passive shows +avoid chance when going over 35%. Display error as d2stats shows 35% cap is correct.

Blood Flash oskill doesn't leech despite tooltip saying it does.

Tested with both positive and negative cooldown.

I have thought about this for many patches and figured it's worth verbalizing it rather than just thinking about it if it's possibly a healthy change.

Drop rates (no drop %) being effected by player count indirectly causes most builds to feel far less efficient when there is a few (the less of them the worst it feels since it limits build diversity for this case) builds that can do p7/p8 nearly as fast as the fastest p1 builds. This causes a lot of builds to just feel bad in comparison (not even to just the best p8 builds, but even ones that do p5 comfortably) to feel so much less rewarding. P1 farming has so much build diversity and feels fine, even playable on some meme builds. The proposition i'll state below, I think, would be healthy for the state of the game.

Possibly make drops static to a specific player count. I actually feel p1 drop rate is fine and would work as a static global drop rate for any games player count. Others might disagree with this and maybe the majority would want it to be slightly higher but either way the point stands that it's not the drop rate specifically, it's the difference in efficiency from p1 to p8 farming. In my eyes the easier balancing option to mitigate this would be making drop rates static regardless of player count. Some builds would still need nerfs because of the nature of pushing lab but I think this would be a healthy change.

I know there is a community of people who would hate me for posting something like this, but I feel it needs to be addressed and I put the future development of the mod at the top of my list.

Controlledanger wrote:I have thought about this for many patches and figured it's worth verbalizing it rather than just thinking about it if it's possibly a healthy change.

Drop rates (no drop %) being effected by player count indirectly causes most builds to feel far less efficient when there is a few (the less of them the worst it feels since it limits build diversity for this case) builds that can do p7/p8 nearly as fast as the fastest p1 builds. This causes a lot of builds to just feel bad in comparison (not even to just the best p8 builds, but even ones that do p5 comfortably) to feel so much less rewarding. P1 farming has so much build diversity and feels fine, even playable on some meme builds. The proposition i'll state below, I think, would be healthy for the state of the game.

Possibly make drops static to a specific player count. I actually feel p1 drop rate is fine and would work as a static global drop rate for any games player count. Others might disagree with this and maybe the majority would want it to be slightly higher but either way the point stands that it's not the drop rate specifically, it's the difference in efficiency from p1 to p8 farming. In my eyes the easier balancing option to mitigate this would be making drop rates static regardless of player count. Some builds would still need nerfs because of the nature of pushing lab but I think this would be a healthy change.

I know there is a community of people who would hate me for posting something like this, but I feel it needs to be addressed and I put the future development of the mod at the top of my list.

Farming efficiency has more to do with killspeed rather than drop rate/MF. As essentially every single person ever answers questions regarding how much MF they need with: "Enough MF to not negatively impact your killspeed", this seems to be very true at least in the perception of the playerbase. So that means balance is the more striking factor in this regard rather than drop rates.

And if you think about it, a static drop rate across all player counts would make people question why they should even farm with somebody else to begin with, if all that means is fighting harder enemies (and thus more time needed to kill) with less drops (since same drop rates x more time = less drops). In the current state people already don't like to play together, and this suggestion would only add fuel to the fire.

It would be a different matter if you also had static monster HP across all player counts (take /players 4 for example, which should probably be totally fine), which would result in people playing together since they struggle too much by themselves. And killing enemies twice as fast thanks to some random dude joining your game would be seen as something positive. Additionally, it's more efficient to farm that way with other people in the same area, whereas you have exactly 0 negative results from playing solo in a game with other people. But you also wouldn't have any benefits doing so.

The only thing that would be detrimental to that is what your suggestion aims to solve: the balance issue between classes would be a lot more obvious, since monsters are now always /players 4 instead of players/1 which most builds are not necessarily as well balanced for as they are for /players 1. And builds that are currently performing great on /players 8 would far outperform any of those builds that are balanced towards /players 1. And that change would probably kill the single player base.

So to sum it up, the balance is more of an issue than the drop rates. Your suggestion tries to fix the symptoms, not the core issue.

But that's just my train of thought. I might as well be wrong.

Pestilence in the necro's malice tree scales with strength and dexterity instead of energy like all the other malice skills. this makes no sense at all for a spellcaster.

Controlledanger wrote:...

I'm curious what are considering as p5 and p8, do you know that this value is a sum of total players in the game (when monster is getting created) and nearby players from the same party (when monster is getting killed) divided by two and rounded towards zero? Here is the actual numbers from the game files, I hope that devs don't mind if I post them, there is really nothing special about extracting the data from treasureclassex.bin:

Fauztinville:
NoDrop = 1197
ProbSum = 1218 (NDgoldX* = 495)
TotalProb = 1197 + 1218 = 2415

Corrupted Abbey:
NoDrop = 1200
ProbSum = 1113 (NDgoldX* = 431)
TotalProb = 1200 + 1113 = 2313

* As Marco once said NDgoldX was invented by Laz to counter NoDrop reduction, it serves the same purpose but it's not affected by players count.

Can you demonstrate us how p7/p8 would perform against p5 and how significant this difference is?

ParticuLarry wrote:.

On first point no, this is exactly the point. There are builds that can kill nearly as fast in p8 as in p1 and if you have ever played one of these builds in p8 with appropriate kill speed and mf you know what im talking about. I'ts far more efficient and you net much more loot/hour without a doubt.

static drop rates would somewhat impact grouping, but not nearly as much as you think. It's more heavy on xp gain and that has already taken a hit with p5 being max and labs being introduced. The content added will play far more of a roll on grouping than drop rates and labs have shown this as a primary example.

On final point, you have this mixed up. I never mentioned life changing with p levels, just drop rates. It's very possible to change no drop to be a different plvl while keeping life p1. This change would do the opposite of what you stated.

SwineFlu wrote:
Controlledanger wrote:...

I'm curious what are considering as p5 and p8, do you know that this value is a sum of total players in the game (when monster is getting created) and nearby players from the same party (when monster is getting killed) divided by two and rounded towards zero? Here is the actual numbers from the game files, I hope that devs don't mind if I post them, there is really nothing special about extracting the data from treasureclassex.bin:

Fauztinville:
NoDrop = 1197
ProbSum = 1218 (NDgoldX* = 495)
TotalProb = 1197 + 1218 = 2415

Corrupted Abbey:
NoDrop = 1200
ProbSum = 1113 (NDgoldX* = 431)
TotalProb = 1200 + 1113 = 2313

* As Marco once said NDgoldX was invented by Laz to counter NoDrop reduction, it serves the same purpose but it's not affected by players count.

Can you demonstrate us how p7/p8 would perform against p5 and how significant this difference is?

Yes i know this information but it's much more clear (to me at least) if you just go farm p8 on a actual build that can do it (or p7 they are both the same while farming alone) fast with mf vs p1. The difference is very apparent if you actually have the kill speed. P5 is still very strong and in many cases is probably just as strong as p7 until your gear is perfect. These are the league start builds that you see in every fauzt1, dunc1, k3k1 game every season. This change wouldn't have a huge impact on economy, but it's similar concept to trinity beam exists (existed) while pushing lab with other builds, when you know it's there it doesn't make the build you're playing feel as rewarding because you know you can't be as efficient.

The nerfs to a few of the overpowered builds for farming p8 has happened over each patch and he has definitely helped (trap rate, vessel, void star, ect). But i think we will always have something leaking through with new items/bugs/ect so to me the easier fix is to just make static drop rate.

Controlledanger wrote:...

This game is already a joke if you have to play it as a multiplayer game, there is little to no benefit to do so and you want to remove even this incentive. I don't get why is it bad that players are rewarded if they play together, isn't that an essence of any party game? And to think of it, proc chain builds, players command and a few other sp exclusive features died for this so they can justify having a multiplayer for this mod at all and you telling me it was for nothing?

Controlledanger wrote:On first point no, this is exactly the point. There are builds that can kill nearly as fast in p8 as in p1 and if you have ever played one of these builds in p8 with appropriate kill speed and mf you know what im talking about. I'ts far more efficient and you net much more loot/hour without a doubt.

static drop rates would somewhat impact grouping, but not nearly as much as you think. It's more heavy on xp gain and that has already taken a hit with p5 being max and labs being introduced. The content added will play far more of a roll on grouping than drop rates and labs have shown this as a primary example.

On final point, you have this mixed up. I never mentioned life changing with p levels, just drop rates. It's very possible to change no drop to be a different plvl while keeping life p1. This change would do the opposite of what you stated.

First of all: I have to agree with Swineflu. As he said, taking away the incentive to play together isn't making the game a better experience.

And I merely continued your idea. Just a little brainstorming in order to counteract the negative impact a static drop rate would have with a static health system. And I also explained what other negative impacts that would have. So no, I don't have this mixed up. I just continued your idea.

Regarding the experience gain: This is an endgame issue. How many people actually get to the point where all they want to do is farming experience or labs? 1%? Or even less? So of course, for those 1%, this wouldn't have an effect on grouping. But even for them it's the same negative effect until they reach that certain point in the game.

It's better to fix the issue of balance rather than fix something that isn't broken is all I wanted to get across.