The Endgame user experience is like serving a prison sentence

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RyougiShiki
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As the topic said, the endgame user experience is like serving a prison sentence. :shock:

In fact, it's a slang I use with my friends by Chinese to express how boring and endless of this end-game. :shock:

I have to say, median is a good game, at least in early-game stage, even in SP or SSF, ignore the trade market. The main reason I think like all diablo games is, we are keep making progress. :D

But hey, how does this end game suck like this? :?:

The first thing I WANT TO HIGHLIGHT IS:

What's wrong with phoboss fragment drop?Ben Told me that it's 3% x2 in T10, but check my kill record, I didn't get any of it. If you choose to believe that RNG will work fine, let's say the expectation of number of kills of phoboss in T10 is about 20, if the RNG engine is true there will always be some unlucky and super lucky ppl and it's not a good thing really. In fact all random process is fake random, Take Dota2 an example, if you don't lucky attack, the probability of lucky attack will rise until next success lucky. Dev team, please make a change about this, like years ago the trophy change. I know it's hard to realize various ideas but at least try a little bit. You already nerf the spawn of phoboss, at least make the drop rate of frag higher. (-:

The second thing I want to mention is T10 drop rate.And all stone drop rate.
I know this is hard to balance, and in this patch we have a T6 drop in T7+, but IMO it doesn't work fine, T6 stones is like trash now, for end-game. I can share my thought here, T7 have a smaller drop rate T6 (I THINK AT LEAST A HALF NERF) ,T8 - T7, .... and so on until T10 -T9. (-:

If you keep the T10 drop rate like now ,it is just brutally extending the game time for late game players but causing a great deal of damage to the game experience. If you do go into the game alone without any help from anyone and play T10, you'll find it's really just jail time. (-:

Anyway, thanks for your reading, hope this game become better.
dave8511
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i wonder if there's something wrong with xxx's mind
i wonder if there's something wrong with xxx's mind
i wonder if there's something wrong with xxx's mind
i wonder if there's something wrong with xxx's mind
i wonder if there's something wrong with xxx's mind
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RyougiShiki
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dave8511 wrote:i wonder if there's something wrong with xxx's mind
i wonder if there's something wrong with xxx's mind
i wonder if there's something wrong with xxx's mind
i wonder if there's something wrong with xxx's mind
i wonder if there's something wrong with xxx's mind

OK now I know how to express that Chinese in English don't spam. Let's talk about the issue seriously
Marrt
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I think Phoboss spawn rate should be increased in T6-T9, because there's many maps where you get absolutely nothing as a reward. Fragment 5 also deserves some increase in drop rate, because currently you mainly obtain it from T10, where you get increased chance of Fragment 5 and also increased chance to spawn Phoboss due to increased spawn rate of bosses.

The new feature of T6 dropping in T7+ was not too necessary. I remember I rarely dropped to yellow tiers in last seasons (like 1-2 times at most). I mean, this feature fulfills the function it was implemented for and I don't mind leaving it as it is, but currently T6 stones are just raining and you get so many of them that you will never ever be able to play them all. The problem is that T6 does not give you anything good, since Phoboss spawn rate is so low. So all in all, I would decrease the T6 riftstone drop and increase Phoboss spawn rate in T6-T9 instead, thus hopefully making T6 more worthwhile to play.

Another issue is that with time, you obtain so many bad UMOs from Phoboss that you don't really have anything to do with them. I would like to see a recipe of 3x UMO -> random UMO, somewhat similar to the new shrine system with catalyst of transference. Here's some possibilities of how it could work:

Option 1: cube 3x random UMO for your desired UMO. This sounds too strong.
Option 2: cube 3x random UMO for another random UMO. This sounds too weak.
Option 3: cube 3x random UMO of a type (armor/weapon/jewelry/all items) to get another UMO of the same type. To me this seems like the best choice, however I wouldn't make the recipe global, rather I would like to see an item similar to catalyst of transference, allowing you to transform 3 UMOs into one with a single charge. This new catalyst or charge could be a drop from the unstable anomaly, to further boost its drops as well as labs drops, because it feels like labs are not a great place compared to scosglen atm.

This catalyst system could be applied to riftstones as well, for example Navigator could drop a charge for the catalyst and allow you to upgrade 2x riftstone of certain level to one level higher, making use of the useless T6 that he drops every time.
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RyougiShiki
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Marrt wrote:Option 2: cube 3x random UMO for another random UMO. This sounds too weak.


I think in a very very old version we have this recipe. But I don't know the reason why dev team canceled it. weak is better than nothing at least.

Many situations you and I mentioned and experienced is for extending the end-game time and season life, I think.
But this simple and brutal approach makes me feel bad. I think the best way is to create new demands, such as the new boss for taha Ghal Qor this season. Some high-end bosses need a basic supplemental material from low-tier boss/area.
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Faulk
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I would like to see labs be more rewarding as well. I think the effigy upgrading mechanic on the dkey helped that out a bit and I think something similar for UMOs would be good too. The mini bosses can become pretty dull and annoying after awhile, so having the extra incentive of them dropping a conversion charge would be nice.

I don't know if "3x UMO = desired UMO" would be too strong. I think that's the best option of what u listed and evens the playing field for UMOs. The best UMO is only worth 3 of the worst. So no matter what UMO u grab from a box, off pho, or just a drop, you are getting good value. I think the easier ppl can get the UMOs they need the better. It feels like they need to be more accessible or not so build enabling.

Introducing more frequent phoboss spawns in 6-9 could be problematic though; due to his difficulty for a lot of builds and how challenging he can be for newer players. Could be wasting stone after stone if ur build just cant handle phoboss well, crippling some builds progress t6+.

I'd be curious to know ppls thoughts on putting phoboss + anom behind a purify shrine, if that's possible. You break the shrine you spawn either pho or anom. Could up their frequency in labs without punishing players with them. But maybe that will make things way too easy and not as exciting without their constant threat and being able to just clear the lab before engaging them.
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Torrasque
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Faulk suggestion of Phoboss behind shrine is nice. I got almost instabonked in T8 twice today because Phoboss was right near the entry. And when a Abyss shrine or flesh weaver thing is there to add more difficulty/heal it is too much. Hell it took me well over 100 (probably close to 150) uber bosses before I finally got chart 2. And then i got a 2nd immediately after that XD.

It does seem like very few builds are able to power through rifts quickly enough to farm T10 labs to hopefully get that Dream 5 frag early. I think this is ok, but I also think the frag rate should be higher, UMO recipe to cube 3-5 random UMO into one of choice, and higher rate of next tier riftstone from navigator available. I think only 3-4 times out of like 70+ navigator have i gotten a higher tier rift stone or same level. I have a mule of T6 and it seems excessive. Maybe make T8 drop T9 and T7. Overall I’m still having fun but wondering if i should just go back to Scosglen because dream 5 frag from T6-9 labs seems impossible. Not to mention sometimes Phoboss is very RNG based unless you are a build stacking Solitude UMOs and have very good sustain.

I do have a question too. I assembled the 4 chart pieces into the full chart. Does this item have any use now? Or did I waste those pieces.
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Lynderika
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In the end the worst thing is how repetitive lab quickly become, since the bestiary always is the same, going back from T10 to 6 just feel like a plain downgrade, and I understand the feeling of labour that can come from grinding back to simply get to a place you gain xp again. I know since it's that very feeling that made me not farm to 150 this season, even if I could. And it was my first time grinding labs, I can't even imagine for someone that try multiple seasons.
It's not like T6 have something that 10 have not or something, it's just everything less, and no xp after some point. Honestly I don't think it's as simple as giving the place more rewards, it also need a pretty big rework.

Another thing I wanna mention if we talk about endgame in general is the endgame bosses. Samael is amazing and my favorite fight of the game. Except it's very stupid Taha requirement that pretty much says "hey no ssf allowed" (if it were me I'd put a "taha+ghal+qor" that you have to use only once to upgrade the stone, then every attempt only eat sigs), the fight itself is nice and reward playing well. Compared to that, Deimoss is a very boring dps check, with potential obnixious totem debuffs, the "your screen freeze" attack, err I mean the meteors, and the random elite spawn that decide entierely how hard to fight will be. Nithogur is even worse, it's literally a gear and build check, you either die or have the dps (and solitudes/farnhams) and right clic the boss to death. There isn't a single engaging or exciting thing about it.

And I think that's where the line between nice balance and obnixious balance is. Samael represent that line ; It's a boss that can be done on a very scuffed set up with a proper plan and gameplay. But farming him consistently require a more impressive gear, more umos, better preparation etc. It's a line that players don't have to cross, but it give incentive to do so, and many will, especially if the reward is worth.
But now, any tentative to do content harder than that will simply not end up working properly due to how the characters scales currently. Because theses content end up balanced the way they are because they're made around all the op things that can clear them. The Solitude, Farnhams, Banish abuses, some specifics builds, etc. And anyone that don't use them will have a bad time. And no, making a very specific list of skill that abuse thoses op mechanics the best completly unusable by giving deimoss/phob/new boss some avoid when using them isn't the solution, you're just asking for a next skill to show up without addressing the core issue.

In the end there would be so many thing to change, but honestly I don't really know what to do that could help. And anyway, to me Deimoss and the new boss are such a complete mess of a fight that they need a complete change, and that can't be helped by throwing around suggestions. Labs isn't as bad, and have some nice ideas and mobs, I believe Phoboss to be real nice for exemple. I'm not really for unlocking him from a totem, to me the best part of labs is when you see his icon showing up, and you have to prepare for him, find his position and all that. But of course entrance Phoboss, surprise phoboss, or phoboss + friends (when a navigator come at the same time and follow you and you can't escape because of phob arena, haha), thoses feel bad. But they feel bad because they make us grind stones again, and we're back to problem #1.
Adding randomness to things isn't the problem, if anything it add some fun and variety. The problem come when there's a grind to simply attempt said randomness. Samael cold worms aren't bad mechanically, but they feel bad because we used a taha just to enter the arena. That's the same here with labs or Deimoss, but much worse.
Gotta say, the T6 drops that was recently added was a really nice touch, without it I'd have dropped labs 10 time earlier for sure.
Edited by Lynderika 10 months.
snowbird
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The ceiling system for extremely unlucky people would not be able to be implemented here due to the old engine. Besides, I'm against the increased droprate of Frag 5 because it'll eventually shorten the length of active ladder. Umo issues would be solved if they would have relatively equivalent value and performance, atm there are too many trash ones. some of them are even worse than normal ones

One more, deimoss fight is not a dps check as soon as you don't play with a super op build of the era that only aims for the fight. Have you fought and tried to survive 6 min with all the shrines opened luring mists out every 45 sec and dealing with adds? personally I like deimoss fight more than sam, it's designed well enough imo. Tbh sam fight is more likely to be a gear check since it's easier to reach such a spec for it. Once you have enough umos on a good build sam fight is even more boring than deimoss fight, nothing can kill you except for stupid desync which can mostly prevented by some proper teleports. It's relatively easier to do Sam with poor gears, ofc, because Sam area is easier to access. It's not strange at all that deimoss fight has a higher gear-huddle since she's been the last boss of the mod.
About Nithogur...I don't feel it's right that you say something's bad when you haven't fully completed it. The fight should be more active, the boss should be less tanky, solitude issue should be solved, the stupid relics should be buffed, I partially agree with that but at least I've liked some of new gimmicks and ideas, strategies that would help the fight a lot, which could potentially make the boss a real thing. I believe it should never be a boss like sam which you can farm easily with crap gears, It's a true endgame boss. Ofc it should check your gear HARD. The issues you mentioned will be mostly solved as soon as solitude is gone, I tried the fight without solitude and it was not a something like you described at all.
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RyougiShiki
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snowbird wrote:The ceiling system for extremely unlucky people would not be able to be implemented here due to the old engine. Besides, I'm against the increased droprate of Frag 5 because it'll eventually shorten the length of active ladder. Umo issues would be solved if they would have relatively equivalent value and performance, atm there are too many trash ones. some of them are even worse than normal ones

in fact that's not bad, season will end soon anyway, take D3 an example it basically all ROS-BOT after 1 month in public games.
The frag 5 drop rate is fine but due to the bad engine it won't work as intention, unless dev team think it's ok to have some ppl kill it after 100 times to get a drop. The solution to make the season longer should be make the game fun for all stages, at least try to do so, not punish players with such a low rate to make them do over and over and over. I remember the talk with you in discord that no wonder only kill 3 phoboss in T10 so no frag , that's fair. Now it's near 30 only on my dudu, and I have another char, already lvl 149, still no.