Game is unplayable in Hardcore

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Longstaff
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Mr_Bill wrote: ..... I have been playing D2-variant games since the 1990s ...


Hey I get your frustration and sometimes it just helps to have a decent vent.

But with all that gaming experience you must be familiar with the vagaries of playing online, all the way back to the early days. I can remember wrestling with a 14.4 dial-up modem playing Descent head to head with a mate. At the time it was a huge buzz just to actually both get into the game. Only to then cop a massive faction hit with the missus because she wanted to make phone calls ;-)
Impulse_
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Mr_Bill wrote:Could have been (and likely will be, at some point) randomly killed in the same manner (e.g. random spikes in lag or desync). (For example I had a Necromancer whose health bar started dropping drastically while in the Bloody Foothills, even though he was miles away from any fighting. I "Saved And Exited" immediately and when I re-joined the session, he had like 400 out of 5,000 hit points left. This kind of nonsense is unfortunately par for the course.)


It looks like typical desync on top of unstable connection with 50-100 basic latency.
How much is your basic latency to main gs according to ULTT?
You can have 100mbps wide channel, but connection width != connection quality.
My connection is like 20 Mb / sec in both directions, but it's just different metric which can't deny latency jumps.
Sometimes i struggle with unstable latency (like 16-16-16-1500-16-16-800) and game became a roulette, even with more careful playstyle - you should understand it.

Also frequent blink = another defensive layer 8-)

Also using custom tool to monitor connection so i can see instantly when latency goes nuts and then depending on unstability frequency i'm deciding - do i have to play carefully, do some craft stuff, have a coffee or just take a break from MXL at all or still rushing like a madman. Looks like this:
Image

One more important thing to understand before playing hardcore in MXL - gear lock on some specs.
You can kinda easy get clvl 120-125 on any random spec, but then it's may be mandatory to get some build enabling SU/SSU gear or just 300+ shrines of same type, so basically you need to grind dunc/fauzt with high (250 at least) MF and good enough clear speed. So it's may be really efficient tactic - to start with some kind of summoner (350MF @ 10 FHR fauzt runs easy :mrgreen:) - they are very lagproof too - and then running your preferable spec or just some rando for which you got good gearing. Don't listen to random chaps from softcore who'll told you that summoners are boring - that's just depends on task, one click RMB spam on some other builds isn't any less boring, constant & precise bending/baning/distraction resummoning on necro is even more enjoyable.

And yeah, labs stuff isn't easy to get for #anyrandom spec too.

Also it's true that you have to be acknowledged in bestiary, still catching some unexpected instagibs (like darkwardens on melee in A2/A5 Hell for example or big enough pack of Gargoyles spamming Earthquake in Cellars). Don't get me wrong, it's good to have such a creatures - makes the leveling less boredomish, MXL just lacks some handy database on them. And it's way more remarkable when you're dying on hc due to lack of knowledge than just nvm corpse rushing on soft - next time you're just playing right.
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aahz
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...and don't forget the fact, that the game, while not being made for HC (it's very difficult to make it hard/challenging for SC while staying HC friendly) went a long time in removing several one-hit-ko mechanics and making it much HC viable.
I have started playing HC in 2016 during Challenge season (which was especially hard - buffed monsters/density, and lot of 1hko monsters/surprises like Witches, Detonators, Dragon eggs or my favourite Darkwardens with high lvl tremor on death proc in Fauzt) and had so much fun (even tho I died tons of times) that I never went back to SC
https://tsw.vn.cz - TSW realm stats (& Quests, NotArmory, HC chars)
Mr_Bill
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Postscript :

Of THREE (3) Level 100+ Hardcore characters, only ONE (1) actually survived the Nightmare Baal fight. Which pretty much sums up how completely useless, unfair and "un-fun" this game is, in Hardcore.

Let's go over Nightmare Baal for a second :

(1) You can't bring minions (except a merc) into the battle with him, or he (as the notes say) starts to summon other boss monsters to run interference for him, making an already ridiculous fight, next to impossible. (I didn't even try this with my Necro, meaning that all the skill points that he devoted to this aspect of his build were basically wasted. He did bring his Iron Golem into the battle, which also had no effect as Baal teleports away much faster than the Golem can move or catch up to him.)

(2) Baal has this "Black Ring Of Death" attack that can one-shot a level 105 Necromancer with 4500+ hit points, a 40,000+ Defense Factor and 76+ across-the-board resists, while the character is on the outer edge of the Black Ring Of Death (not in the middle of it).

(3) If you attack in close, he uses the Black Ring Of Death against you, insta-kill. (Even while frantically chugging potions.)

(4) If you try to attack from range, he teleports on top of you and does some crazy kind of melee attack (it happens so fast that you can't even see the animation) that can 1-shot a Level 105 Paladin with 5500+ hit points, 77+ across-the-board resists and a 42,000 defense factor. You don't have time to drink a potion. Wham! Bang! Bam! You're Dead, Jim! :cry:

(5) Ranged, auto-targeting spells (e.g. Necro totems, Paladin Slayers, Trap Assassin traps) are next to useless against him as he teleports wildly all the time, meaning that if one of these spells gets a hit or two in on him (don't bet on it), he'll be gone before any more damage gets done to him.

(6) On average he kills your mercenary after about 8 to 12 seconds of battle (assuming, of course, that you have lived that long). Thereafter, whether or not you go back to town and trot your merc out into the wilderness to fight a few monsters and fix the "merc loses all his / her innate skills" bug that we all know about, it doesn't matter because subsequently, the merc gets 1-shotted instantly in every case. I am not sure if this is a bug or if it is intentional, but it makes mercenaries next to useless as well.

(7) Baal also has some kind of attack (I'm not sure exactly what it is, it's not his Frost Nova) that absolutely cripples your ability to move (this effect is even worse if you are chugging potions, which you have to do to avoid being 1-shotted). I noticed that both my Paladin and Necro were slowed to a crawl, despite their both having FRW on their boots (the only reason this didn't affect the Assassin was because of Blink, but she came very close several times).

Of course, since you can't run away when Baal starts bombarding you with the Black Ring Of Death, you will sit there watching your life bulb being eroded rapidly and there is nothing you can do to avoid this... and of course you are spending all your attention on staying alive; you don't dare actually take your attention off of healing so as to actually attack this monster.

(8) Of the 3 Level 104+ characters that I tried this quest with, the only one who survived was an Assassin whose Storm Crows do around 15-20K damage per shot (with some minuses to enemy poison resist). This character (I am sure of it, I counted) had to hit over 40 times with this attack, to finally kill him. This means that either Nightmare Baal has around 700K+ hit points or has the equivalent in "Avoid". I think the only reasons that the Assassin lived (apart from her massive damage attack) were (a) Perfect Being and (b) Blink... but even that fight was a very near thing.

The bottom line : This "mandatory" Median quest is next to suicidal for most character classes, no matter how well the character in question is played; and even for the "right" character builds (e.g. characters that have a massive damage homing attack that Baal can't just teleport away from), the slightest mis-step will result in the instant death of a character that has taken hours, days and weeks of careful play, just to get to this point. It is an utterly unsatisfying and pointless waste of time in Hardcore. I can understand why an end-game boss quest is supposed to be hard; but Median has taken this (defensible) idea and made a masochistic, unfair and really unenjoyable parody out of it.

So (you say), "just play Softcore". But there, the problem is reversed. If you don't mind getting killed, like, 20+ times, ANY build played however amateurishly, can easily succeed... "persistence pays off", in other words. The answer to all of this is (or should be), obvious : if you want to make these quests "hard enough" to be "challenging" for immortal game characters, then the mod designers need to tone them down drastically for non-mortal characters. (Or, just tone them down for ALL characters.)

I have repeatedly seen in the patch notes how one of the designers' claimed goals with Median XL Sigma, was to "make it easier for players to access and enjoy the end-game content". Well, I can tell you guys, when there is a 30% survival rate to get your fantasy characters (carefully designed and geared up over months of careful play) from the "Intermediate" difficulty level to the "Hard" difficulty level... something is badly wrong, somewhere.

It's a shame. Median is otherwise such a good game. But the Hardcore play balance is badly, BADLY broken. It needs to be fixed.
Javalad
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I both agree and disagree with you on this. When you decide to play hardcore you basically resign yourself to not being able to do some quests that SC players can do, but when you are talking about Nightmare bosses they are definitely do-able. Hell Baal is a different matter altogether.

I wish it was a bit easier but then, as has been said, it would make it ridiculously easy for SC chars.
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Elendilli
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not to be rude or anything but if u cant kill nightmare baal on hardcore you should probably give up on hardcore till you're more experienced in softcore because nm baal is the LEAST of your concerns even after you beat it.

half the things u mentioned like summons are for hell baal not nightmare so i really dont know which one you're talking about but im going to assume its nightmare which does not have this ability.

all the confusing mumbo jumbo aside, i do agree that in general, baals attacks are poorly telegraphed (dogshit animation for black ring of dogshit). I personally have gotten used to it and have no issue but I remember saying "wow this black ring attack looks like complete and utter dogshit" around when it was first implemented.
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Mr_Bill wrote:This "mandatory" Median quest is next to suicidal for most character classes, no matter how well the character in question is played

Then why do I beat him always without deaths? And I'm by no means some super-player even though I have played Median forever.


As Elendilli said: get some experience in SC first, you WILL die to the first ubers and have to start over and over again so I see no point to start this mod in HC.
Mr_Bill
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Jampula wrote:
Mr_Bill wrote:This "mandatory" Median quest is next to suicidal for most character classes, no matter how well the character in question is played

Then why do I beat him always without deaths? And I'm by no means some super-player even though I have played Median forever.


As Elendilli said: get some experience in SC first, you WILL die to the first ubers and have to start over and over again so I see no point to start this mod in HC.



You're either missing the point or you didn't read all of what I most recently wrote. Of course you can beat Nightmare Baal; as I stated in my last message, I did so myself in Hardcore with my Scorpion Blade / Storm Crows Assassin. I have done it before numerous times in Softcore, including several times deathless.

The issue is that whether or not you survive against this monster has far less to do with playing skill (or, really, even gear), than it does to blind luck (and it is the same with Nightmare Diablo, incidentally). Both of these monsters have "95% certain 1-shotters" (for Diablo it is that stupid Bone Prison that he throws before he Flamestrikes you) and for Baal it is multiple things but particularly his pounce attack and his "Black Circle Of Death". The fact that a few ultra-determined, experienced and well-briefed players (including me!) can occasionally beat this endgame quest without being slain, DOES NOT "justify" having the quest set up in such a way that only 1 out of every 10 "casual" players would stand a snowball's chance in Hell (err... "Nightmare") of succeeding. All this does, at least in Hardcore, is make the game pointless, irritating and no fun to play. Quests that you have a 90% chance of being killed trying to complete are just silly and contrived, in Softcore; in Hardcore, they make the game entirely pointless.

I would note that the developers have already tacitly recognized this, in the many earlier adjustments that they made to Median's previous idiotic random 1-shotters (remember those nice Witches in Act 1, guarding the entrance to the Tamoe Highlands, so your Level 12 Hardcore character could get 1-shotted by just walking forward?). It escapes me why they keep these kinds of mechanisms in the Hardcore boss fights. They are unnecessary, highly destructive of enjoyable game play and completely at odds with a game that can be played in Hardcore mode. If this nonsense has to stay, then I think the developers should just call a spade a spade and drop Hardcore mode altogether. As it is now, Hardcore players are being sold a bill of goods.
adiabloplayer
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[
Mr_Bill wrote:
Jampula wrote:
Mr_Bill wrote:This "mandatory" Median quest is next to suicidal for most character classes, no matter how well the character in question is played

Then why do I beat him always without deaths? And I'm by no means some super-player even though I have played Median forever.


As Elendilli said: get some experience in SC first, you WILL die to the first ubers and have to start over and over again so I see no point to start this mod in HC.



You're either missing the point or you didn't read all of what I most recently wrote. Of course you can beat Nightmare Baal; as I stated in my last message, I did so myself in Hardcore with my Scorpion Blade / Storm Crows Assassin. I have done it before numerous times in Softcore, including several times deathless.

The issue is that whether or not you survive against this monster has far less to do with playing skill (or, really, even gear), than it does to blind luck (and it is the same with Nightmare Diablo, incidentally). Both of these monsters have "95% certain 1-shotters" (for Diablo it is that stupid Bone Prison that he throws before he Flamestrikes you) and for Baal it is multiple things but particularly his pounce attack and his "Black Circle Of Death". The fact that a few ultra-determined, experienced and well-briefed players (including me!) can occasionally beat this endgame quest without being slain, DOES NOT "justify" having the quest set up in such a way that only 1 out of every 10 "casual" players would stand a snowball's chance in Hell (err... "Nightmare") of succeeding. All this does, at least in Hardcore, is make the game pointless, irritating and no fun to play. Quests that you have a 90% chance of being killed trying to complete are just silly and contrived, in Softcore; in Hardcore, they make the game entirely pointless.

I would note that the developers have already tacitly recognized this, in the many earlier adjustments that they made to Median's previous idiotic random 1-shotters (remember those nice Witches in Act 1, guarding the entrance to the Tamoe Highlands, so your Level 12 Hardcore character could get 1-shotted by just walking forward?). It escapes me why they keep these kinds of mechanisms in the Hardcore boss fights. They are unnecessary, highly destructive of enjoyable game play and completely at odds with a game that can be played in Hardcore mode. If this nonsense has to stay, then I think the developers should just call a spade a spade and drop Hardcore mode altogether. As it is now, Hardcore players are being sold a bill of goods.


With Diablo, I agree. The fight is stupid. But with Baal, it's a matter of learning the mechanics. His black pit has an indicator on the ground for about 3 seconds during which you can move out of the way. The pounce attack(which is the druid werewolf skill harbinger I believe) is not dodged but just avoided entirely by staying away from him. And all other attacks including when he summons stuff in Hell only trigger when he scores a hit on you with melee attacks, the cold nova, black pit, etc. Ever since I learned his mechanics, I have had no trouble beating Baal on any difficulty, he just takes a while to beat.

As for Softcore being too easy since you can throw your corpse at the content: No you can't. Lockdowns exist. Soulstealer exists. Certain ubers either can't be entered after a certain amount of time has passed and/or recover a big chunk of their health when they kill a player. If I could "throw my corpse" at anything, I wouldn't have such trouble with Kabraxis and others wouldn't have such trouble with bosses like Laz, deimoss and Samael.

Hardcore is kind of unfair in multiplayer, yeah. If you can't be bothered to switch to Softcore, then play in Single Player. I switched to Single Player as well, so much more fun. Single Player also has 3 times the droprates to make up for no trading. If you want to play with friends, you can do so on Open Battlenet or TCP/IP.
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Lynderika
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A few places are definitly not designed for Hardcore plays, that's for sure. If I had to do a Naginiata Sin hardcore, I'd avoid for a long time places like Tran Athulala (broadside is instagib for a long time) Duncraig, astrogha (only a few builds are able to get him from afar without dangers, you'd need to start one of thoses just for him, or to pray), and finally laz/sam of course, For Laz I'd start a new char just to be able to get "free tries" :mrgreen: Even if he can be kinda consistent honestly. I probably would sweat a lot in triune or kingdom of shadow too

All others are fairly doable, you should train more in sc before starting. Also there's a lot a problem and inconsistency in your description, like talking about nightmare baal summoning act bosses upon hitting when only Hell one does that. Nightmare baal only is a problem for builds that have difficulty at bossing. Such as... Almost everything you describe, if most throwing knifes assassins are going maelstrom and not scorpion Blade / Storm Crows it's for a reason, thoses skills underperform sadly, and even then it's not an insane bosskiller anyway, just consistent. But it's just a question of ease, it can take his time but any build can 100% kill nightmare baal deathless with no luck involved, that's for sure.
The only luck I see in median fight are very very smol things you probably never saw, like samael worm spawning, some zombies spawns in kingdom of shadow, or astrogha being a... Bad boy. Or a few random things like being stuck inside Laz, or having very very paranormal happenings in viz jun. But outside of astrogha they are all save and quitable.

Let's take all your points :
(1) Hell baal have chance to spawn minions on hitting anything, so indeed minion or merc are a bad idea since they're pretty bad at dodging, and will take too much and make you swarmed. Only summoner that can do him correctly is hawk necro.
(2) His "black circle" is physical damage, so what will help you there is physical res, not defense. Defense work on attacks but do not block spells. I'm pretty sure it does the same damage in the edges too. It's fairly tankable for most builds, and very, very easily dodged.
(3) see (2)
(4) His Harbinger attack is hard to counter but souldn't hurt too much, and most importantly he shouldn't combo with anything after this, so you can replace yourself
(5) All endgame bosses teleport exactly to prevent them from staying in a ranged attack forever, it's balanced around that and are not "useless", they still are better even. I find it hard to belive he teleport instantly out of it, that require lots of hits.
(6) Mercenary are not designed to be immortal. They're here to help farming, but can't tank bosses or some places like dunc. This is normal.
(7) & (8) You can use blink on every character with a nef weapon on swap. (also why did your paladin did not have divine apparition?) Even without that it shouldn't hurt that much.


TldR : It's not that Median is designed to kill hc players, it's a game where you need to know and be at ease at a content to do it easily, every first times going against something no matter the build are a mess, or corpses run even sometimes. I remember very well my 40 min first hell diablo fight, I had a hard time to even keep up with his summons. But now he's a piece of cake. It's the same for almost all content, with a fews builds having problems in somes parts of course, but not as much as you belive. EVERY hardcore players out there are people having played a lot of sc already (enough to get to hell baal that's for sure) or at least know where they're going at.

TldR 2 : git gud (always and forever the ultimate truth that apply to everyone, don't take it as an offense. It's because it apply that median is a good game)
Edited by Lynderika 3 years.