[concept] Full build items

[Heathen]

I feel like we are at a point of critical mass of character skills & oskills (after XV). It seems like it would be better to improve/balance existing skills/oskills first before adding in additional batches of 5+.

Sounds like a solid idea.

Although it would be a race in time against the heat death of the universe to sort out all the balance issues.

[Will]

Sorry I'm not following...what balance issues?

@SB, but this is entirely different re: "existing" stuff, like apples to oranges. Or at least that's my impression of things . As to point two, I see a full skill tree as a separation from oskills. Like a concept of how to use a new tree.
Finally, some builds already have players fixated on particular items (admittedly needlessly at times). Not sure how this affects the overall experience but its a fair point m8.

[whist]

Yes you can. You just need a dummy stat added to the item and then you use the dummy stat as a validation on the skillpoint formula. Then you add a desc to the dummy stat and it's basically the exact same you are mentioning here, only that the skill tree is visible all along (which is no big deal)

But what prevents you from just investing points and then remove the item to use another? My code would totally disable the skills from being invested into and being used when the item is not equipped. That would make the concept yet just another khanduran pendant item (equip, invest points, stash the item forever)

1) It would make those items irreplaceable for the build they are creating. Even gear restricted build like melee sorc also have crafted and runeword options in the weapon slot.
2) If the added skill tree is unique and powerful it would be better to think how to integrate it into the base game. Why restrict awesome content to a single item?
3) I feel like we are at a point of critical mass of character skills & oskills (after XV). It seems like it would be better to improve/balance existing skills/oskills first before adding in additional batches of 5+.

1) Well, that's pretty much the idea you know... The item is the build. People have been doing this for a long time already, I'm thinking of items such as Damnaku, except the idea is brought onto a new level. Also my example limited the concept to a single unique item, but it is possible to apply this concept to just about any item, be it a craft affix, an automagic on a specific base item, etc.

2) The idea is to make it interesting and balanced on the same level as other trees. It really just is about variety, allowing you to play a new build with your new found item, and not unlocking a stronger build or something like that. Also, while not necessarily making you "stronger" it could... say, allow your character to do something it couldn't before. A caster barbarian for example? or a summoner sorceress.

3) I don't really see this as a problem to be honest. Hell, it just makes the fun last longer. If one was to be able to test out all the builds in a week, he/she would quickly become bored and quit. The vast amount of things to experiment with makes the fun last almost forever (unless you're one of those who plays an ele dudu 2 weeks and quit until the next ladder reset... but you're just doing it wrong if you are). Now this concept unlocks a brand new complete build, as you can allocate points as you want, mixing points with your innate trees, and creating all kind of new playstyles.

[RollsRoyce]

to be total honest i prefer ANY release alot over controversial ideas that could really be cool, but it seems that not everyone is convinced yet.

I think the idea is great but the effort is so high that this should be focused in a single patch instead of added alongside 20 other things ( if at all).

Another question ? All passives of the regular skilltree would also be disabled ???

[suchbalance]

@whisty

1) Danmaku is an overpowered item that is really bad for build variety. I don't see how your unique "bringing it to the next level" won't be even worse. And if the concept is applicable to multiple items via crafts/runewords/base items why not integrate it into a character already?

2) The new build will be stronger however, because you have another 35 skills in your normal trees to synergise with it. It will by definition increase the power level of a character using it because they have more options for strong skill & passive combos. (this has already happened with XV).

3) I agree with you, but only under the condition that you two have unlimited resources and development time. This is never the case in the real world. That's why I think it's better to focus your limited development time on the core aspects of median/sigma first. Rather than making more new skills considering we already have plenty of unused regular ones and tonnes of unused oskils.

[Marco]

as SB mentioned (and I think I did... or I never pressed the submit button) - the priority in skills is fixing the current 35x7 skills - replace the unused/meh skills with new skill functions provided by the new code (I hope). There are a lot of these already... skills like assassin's landmine should be oskills not class skills .. same applies to skills like laughing ghost, thorn field, almost all bloodzon tree, some spearzon skills, a few assa skills, bear claw, etc. etc. you get my point. Class skills are far from perfection.

It all depends on who does whist think will do all this content. Let me clarify,

Now this concept unlocks a brand new complete build, as you can allocate points as you want, mixing points with your innate trees, and creating all kind of new playstyles.

This sentence is just overly optimistic. I wonder if you know how hard I struggled making a whole set of 35 new class skills in XVc. It's not about quantity, it's about quality. It's OK to add filler content when it comes to say, items, to keep a consistency with all existing itemtypes and tiers. But filler skills, no thanks.

It's the part that intrigues me the most. We'll need a bunch of brainstorming to re-balance and overhaul all classes skilltrees (priority). New content (ubers) will also use all sets of new skills (as most ubers do) (priority). Then you need a decent amount (20+?) of skills to make this concept real in the game. I really think this idea has NO implications of the ridiculous amount of work it takes and the creativity fuel it takes. You don't just think about a skill and create it automagically. You need to consider the mechanisms, scalability, usability, hard point synergies, icon, name, description, graphics, fps-consumption, originality (hardest part due to lack of mechanisms), fun of use, ease of use, synergistic relation to skills in the same tree and class, etc. But whatev lets just make 13263 new skills xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDddd

[Quirinus]

xD

It could be on a charm from an uber, granting all classes their unique skilltree (making 5 new skills per class is ridiculous though, maybe just lock one of the current skill trees and unlock it with this... but that's similar to brc/ennead uberskills), or just the same tree (but that could be done simply by oskills, though you couldn't invest points... unless you make it work by adding +x to oskill via a recipe). But all that is probably not worth the effort and doesn't bring much new to the game...