MedianXL and Bad Math

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User avatar
sappersummoner
Lava Lord
94 | 2
So I've been a long time off and on casual player in MedianXL always returning when mainstream games make design decisions
that are, for lack of a better phrase, anti-human: such as the new call of duty games incorporating bots and the automatic targeting
and shooting of players, under the guise of being real players, and an even playing field...

What I like best about MedianXL is all the complex interaction of game mechanics and how they're laid out in front of players for them
to think about, and experiment with.

So thinking about the games mechanics and their underlying mathematics it has occurred to me that there are some interesting
new developments that have failed to be accounted for. Some players seem to think that the games frame rates are locked in at
25 fps due to the limitations of the games engine, and reading old posts on the forum, and guides related to MedianXL a lot of the
mathematics about the games mechanics are derived from this assumption.

But, with new technology that has come out the game isn't limited to 25 fps anymore, and for example with opengl being the underlying
framework for rendering MedianXL frame rates can be pushed above 25 FPS to around 75 fps max.


So reading old guides on mechanics which are the de facto reference point for designing our characters, and choosing a development
path to capitalize on, understanding frame rates interaction with our characters various speeds, such as attack speed, cast speed, hit recovery speed,
we can find that these mathematics are based on old limitations. Here's a quote as an example...

General Mechanics Guide
viewtopic.php?t=22672

Next Delay
Just about every non melee attack in the game uses Diablo's "Missiles" system. An arrow, a spell, anything that isn't a melee "slap" carries a stat called next delay (ND for short). The ND number is the amount of frames a missile has to wait before hitting again. If a piercing missile has 0 ND, it can hit every single frame it is currently passing through an enemy's or player's hit box. If a piercing missile has 1 ND, it hits every other frame, 2 ND is every 3rd frame, and so on. Since the engine runs at 25 frames per second, a single piercing missile with 0 ND (and a big enough hit box/slow enough movement) could hit 25 times a second on an enemy.


and here's another example of an image from an old guide representing speed breakpoints for characters playing bowzon to reach
in order to more effectively deal damage and defend themselves, again, based on the mathematical assumption of the game being
limited to 25 frames per second.

Image

Once players get to hell difficulty, and have to start doing uber, now called heroic, challenges, these numbers become one of the most
important factors in how well their character will perform, and even whether or not they can possibly overcome most challenges.
Not enough resistances? Spells, and elemental damage, will kill players, preventing them from progressing. Not enough faster hit recovery?
Players will become overwhelmed by monsters attacks in various zones, and will be unable to trade damage with them and survive.
And without enough attack and/or cast speed players can't deal damage efficiently to kill quickly, which can also be a game breaker in
a variety of situations once players get to hell, which is chaotic, and full of lots of different challenges, with their own unique mechanics,
or obstacles to overcome.

Character speeds have come to form the foundation for every player to overcome challenges in hell, after which their own skills,
and game knowledge, come into play. It's really amazing looking at all the resources people have developed for this game, which
form the underlying knowledge base online, and reference points for understanding how the game works, and how to capitalize
on the underlying mechanics, or mathematics behind the scenes. It's obvious to me at least, that given the new enhancements
to the game, the mathematics we are using as a basis to develop our characters are faulty, and have to be gone over again
to understand how new developments have altered MedianXL's mechanics

edit1: and here's another link with in depth information about the games mechanics, and specifically character speeds, and the formulas
utilized to derive them.... http://www.mannm.org/d2library/faqtoids ... s_eng.html

edit2: it's actually a unique wrapper for diablo/medianXL that utilizes openGL called the glide wrapper that alters how the game is rendered.

These are important details to understand. The glide wrapper was made specifically to enhance diablo/medianXL using the open graphics library
as it's basis, and it offers a wide variety of enhancements that alter the games performance, such as increasing the rate of frames/animations rendered.
Edited by sappersummoner 5 months.
Bliyadolubov
Grubber
314 | 10
sappersummoner wrote:So I've been a long time off and on casual player in MedianXL always returning when mainstream games make design decisions
that are, for lack of a better phrase, anti-human: such as the new call of duty games incorporating bots and the automatic targeting
and shooting of players, under the guise of being real players, and an even playing field...

What I like best about MedianXL is all the complex interaction of game mechanics and how they're laid out in front of players for them
to think about, and experiment with.

So thinking about the games mechanics and their underlying mathematics it has occurred to me that there are some interesting
new developments that have failed to be accounted for. Some players seem to think that the games frame rates are locked in at
25 fps due to the limitations of the games engine, and reading old posts on the forum, and guides related to MedianXL a lot of the
mathematics about the games mechanics are derived from this assumption.

But, with new technology that has come out the game isn't limited to 25 fps anymore, and for example with opengl being the underlying
framework for rendering MedianXL frame rates can be pushed above 25 FPS to around 75 fps max.

So reading old guides on mechanics which are the de facto reference point for designing our characters, and choosing a development
path to capitalize on, frame rates interaction with our characters various speeds, such as attack speed, cast speed, hit recovery speed,
we can find that these mathematics are based on old limitations. Here's a quote as an example...

General Mechanics Guide
viewtopic.php?t=22672

Next Delay
Just about every non melee attack in the game uses Diablo's "Missiles" system. An arrow, a spell, anything that isn't a melee "slap" carries a stat called next delay (ND for short). The ND number is the amount of frames a missile has to wait before hitting again. If a piercing missile has 0 ND, it can hit every single frame it is currently passing through an enemy's or player's hit box. If a piercing missile has 1 ND, it hits every other frame, 2 ND is every 3rd frame, and so on. Since the engine runs at 25 frames per second, a single piercing missile with 0 ND (and a big enough hit box/slow enough movement) could hit 25 times a second on an enemy.


and here's another example of an image from an old guide representing speed breakpoints for characters playing bowzon to reach
in order to more effectively deal damage and defend themselves, again, based on the mathematical assumption of the game being
limited to 25 frames per second.

Image

Once players get to hell difficulty, and have to start doing uber, now called heroic, challenges, these numbers become one of the most
important factors in how well their character will perform, and even whether or not they can possibly overcome most challenges.
Not enough resistances? Spells, and elemental damage, will kill players, preventing them from progressing. Not enough faster hit recovery?
Players will become overwhelmed by monsters attacks in various zones, and will be unable to trade damage with them and survive.
And without enough attack and/or cast speed players can't deal damage efficiently to kill quickly, which can also be a game breaker in
a variety of situations once players get to hell, which is chaotic, and full of lots of different challenges, with their own unique mechanics,
or obstacles to overcome.

Character speeds have come to form the foundation for every player to overcome challenges in hell, after which their own skills,
and game knowledge, come into play. It's really amazing looking at all the resources people have developed for this game, which
form the underlying knowledge base online, and reference points for understanding how the game works, and how to capitalize
on the underlying mechanics, or mathematics behind the scenes. It's obvious to me at least, that given the new enhancements
to the game, the mathematics we are using as a basis to develop our characters are faulty, and have to be gone over again
to understand how new developments have altered MedianXL's mechanics

i dont undersyand what about was your investigation, what is your point based on? In guides said about breakpoint certain numbers based on 25 frames mechanic. What is your certain numbers? What you wrote is too abstract
User avatar
sappersummoner
Lava Lord
94 | 2
Yea unfortunately it's not abstract in the least sense.

That means it's purely mathematical... or in other words, absolute.

here's a new link I just added that talks about the mathematical formulas used to derive character speeds...

http://www.mannm.org/d2library/faqtoids ... s_eng.html

These formulas are based on the limitations of the diablo program and the various programs that fit in together

to ultimately render the game for players. Those limitations don't exist anymore, we have new technology that

enhances the underlying games performance dramatically....

So again, no more 25 frame rate limitation, that's gone. Now we can get up to 75 frames per second with opengl for example,
Marrt
Djinn
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Why do you think that the calculations are faulty? I don't think you understand things in that much detail to be able to say that and formulate your exact statement. I suppose that the frames outside of the 25 base frames are interpolated inbetween to create a smoother experience, but the calculations are still the same. Changing things to more than 25 frames might involve a lot of work, if it's even possible, and require everyone playing the game to move to the new renderers.
User avatar
sappersummoner
Lava Lord
94 | 2
Yea it's possible with the new technology that has come out to specifically render this game with new enhanced capabilities,

such as higher frame rates... So the underlying mathematics are based on old assumptions. Now the situation is entirely different.

And its actually awesome! Higher frame rates mean that players can interact with the game even faster than what was possible

in the past. Higher frame rates mean that you can literally see and do things faster than you could in the past when the game was

limited at 25 fps. In professional gaming, frame rates are everything for these reasons. Players can literally see more information,

and interact with the game faster, over time, with higher frame rates.
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RequiemLux
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Haven't properly read this post (yet?) but, from a quick skim, it seems awfully familiar with many posts of the long gone past regarding discrepancies related to effective frame rate and FPS shown via overlays. The game at core clocks at 25 FPS, no amount of renders layered upon it is gonna change that. Same goes for D2R. You are mistaken in thinking that the breakpoints are tied to rendered frame rate, they follow "engine ticks" for lack of a better word.
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User avatar
sappersummoner
Lava Lord
94 | 2
It's my understanding (I may be mistaken) that speeds are directly related to the games rendering, not a secret world
behind the scenes we can't see, but instead literally what players can plainly see with their own eyes,

This is the page on calculating attack speed from the page I just linked...

http://www.mannm.org/d2library/faqtoids/ias_eng.html

In it, it talks about how players attack speed is directly related to the rendering of animations, again, not a secret world
behind the scenes we can't see, but instead - literally what players can plainly see with their own eyes.
User avatar
sappersummoner
Lava Lord
94 | 2
So i made a high quality video to demonstrate the dramatic difference between the game rendering at lower FPS (30)
and higher FPS (75)

a 17 minute video at lossless quality is around 47 GBs though so you'll have to wait for it to upload to youtube to see it.

In the video you can clearly see, how the game is not rendering at 25 or 30 fps. That means that all the animations and interactions
with the game are entirely different, than when the game is locked at 30 fps. OpenGL specifically enables diablo 2 to be rendered at
higher frame rates, which alter the way everything works dramatically, when we look at the situation in detail.

edit: it's actually a unique wrapper for diablo/medianXL that utilizes openGL called the glide wrapper that alters how the game is rendered.

These are important details to understand. The glide wrapper was made specifically to enhance diablo/medianXL using the open graphics library
as it's basis, and it offers a wide variety of enhancements that alter the games performance, such as increasing the rate of frames/animations rendered.
Edited by sappersummoner 5 months.
Marrt
Djinn
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At some point you have to stop arguing with the people who develop the game and have more knowledge than you.. not the first thread in which you do this
User avatar
sappersummoner
Lava Lord
94 | 2
Oh im not arguing with anyone, im just putting down my thinking about the game on the forums....

I enjoy thinking about the mechanics, and the mathematics. That's why I play medianXL ; D

These mechanics, and interactions are complex... for me I love that stuff!