Σ 2.0-Series Critical Feedback

[void]

I'm still able to have fun with 2.1, but do largely agree with your points.


When runewords were reworked, a lot of "easy" upgrades were lost, and overall itemization is, comparatively, kind of unflexible.
Some of the in-between runewords were nice to have for example with a WDM char and you found a sacred base early-midgame for a super quick upgrade. Didn't last you forever but it was so fast and easy to make, that it was undoubtedly worth it.
Sacred base + 1 jewel for socket, and then RW = gg

IMO a nice way to see runewords for progression is that they can be a cheap and easy alternative if you weren't particularly lucky with drops. Not quite as strong, but still a way to keep progressing.

Late game they can be OP ofc.

But yeah, nowadays a lot was lost in terms of itemization options.
Some of the newer RWs are cool though.

[CMBurns]

Below are my opinion on the state of the game from 2.0 onward, all are commented with builds that i've recently played for a honest "review"..

1) Build Diversity vs Build Competency

Perhaps diversity isn't the right word for it, I feel like build "diversity" is there, more like build "competency" isn't there

For example, this build that was showcased last league, <2.0> Holy Shock Psicrowner - Mini Guide, it uses clever interaction from paladin to boost INT for the holy shock damage, damage wise it's definitely falling behind, however for the coverage and if you are aiming to farm Fautz cozily while binging netflix? the build is 10/10, however the build is definitely shit at bossing though.

NOW, throw in Bowazon into the equation, if you are after 100% farming efficiency, you are better off rolling with bowazon instead of try-harding with a non-meta build

Why so? One huge thing about Median XL is that no build does everything, there are always caveats, therefor belladonna extract exist, intuitive? no, definitely no.

But when you compare both build taken for example, it's way easier to respec bowazon into bossing spec, as most gears stays about the same, while the Holy Shock Pala will need much more effort, not to mention that you need a great rune to actually getting the latter to roll.

With this in mind, i feel it's not worth my time trying another build, why waste my time if there's a try and true build? Hence my take on build diversity is there, they are simply just not competent enough.

You know as the author of the psicrown holy shock build, I'd like to add a few points.

1. You're right, the single target is atrocious.
2. The level of investment required in order to perform compared to a bow zon is astronomical. All my gear is UMO'd, I have a sleep trophied twice with the awakening. I'm using a raven familiar relic and I think 9 psicrown relics. It's EXTREME investment.
3. In terms of ease of farming for fauz, dunc, vizjun and teganze it is FAR superior to bow zon. I can do P8 for all of those zones comfortably. Bow zon can hardly handle more than P1 without slowing down significantly.
4. It is terrible in scosglen. The accessibility of scosglen is limited to so few builds that overgearing the fuck out of a non meta build still doesn't allow you to go there. Even worse now with the druid bosses.
5. Holy shock was made in 2.0 with the idea that it could be paired with lightning spells. This is a lie. It baits people into making the wrong build and itemization decisions. Holy shock does not scale with lightning spell damage, skill levels or spell focus. Truthfully, I do not see that skill working with anything other than psicrown. So in terms of broad usability Holy Shock serves 2 purposes: Supporting psicrown or farming ACs in normal nilhatak.
6. Despite my above points, I'm still very glad that I was even allowed to make an off meta build like this. I have absolutely no problem needing to overinvest in a build. Even to completely ridiculous extents. But at the end of the day, the build better fucking feel good. This one did... but that isn't the case for many other skills I've given the light of day. And THAT is my problem with build diversity. It shouldn't be ones and zeroes. This build is good, this build is not. Some skills are mechanically superior and should require heavier investment to deal the necessary damage to tackle certain things. But instead we're left with a buttload of skills that are unusable regardless of how invested in them you are.

[A New Start]

This is probably gonna be a long one. I know a lot of the point in the post is about 1.0 but bear with me here, you'll see very soon the seed of the problem that was sowed way back then is what lead to the current 2.0 to begin with.

First off, does anyone remember the reanimate necro build before Sigma 1.0? No? you don't remember it? I don't really blame you, it was a very niche build that not many people played even back then before 1.0 came. Just to show how niche it is, there was zero complains or questions threads back in 1.0 about it after it got completely snapped out of existence, I was busy with irl stuffs at the time to give any proper feedback, but looking back even if I did voice my complaint it wouldn't have amount to anything given the build's lack of popularity and the direction of the changes are far too big for it to be reverted just for a single build.

So why do I care so much about such a niche and probably garbage build? Caused it was my personal most favorite build to play and my goal every season was always to take it to endgame limit of what it can do and improve it every patch. Hell I like the build so much I even wrote an entire guide for it back in the old forum, you can still read it viewtopic.php?f=49&t=1827. You're probably curious what 1.0 changed that was so bad it ruined an entire niche build, well luckily I still have every detail burnt deep into my mind after 4 years still so strap in.

1/ Death Fury and Howling Totems can only affect necromancer minions and later on got removed entirely. And yes it means exactly that, Death Fury and Howling totems now only affect necromancer minions, not even all minions, just the necromancer one. Players, mercs, and most importantly for this buid reanimates are no longer affected, which means the main way to buff reanimates damage are just gone, killing the build entirely. I really cannot stress just how limiting this change is, even putting aside the reanimates build for a second, there used to exist a 4x poison RW Javelin (yeah that one is gone too) that gives Fairy Ring, the bone circle skill that require corspes to cast that the old shaman in Nihlathak area used, that skill has fantastic synergy with both Summoner and reanimate Necro, providing an alternative way to play that is perfectly viable. And the worst thing is, I'm almost 100% sure the change is made to reduce the power of group play and the build just got completely wiped out of existence due to getting caught in the crossfire.

2/Stances can only affect players, mercs and minions. Same thing as above, this change was made also to reduce the power of group play, why is it relevance for Necro you asked? There used to exist a few items that gives you access to Stances that are very impactful, off the top of my head is the old Shadowfiend and Trendkill (R.I.P).

Shadowfiend used to give like 1% reanimate chance for Punishment Turret that gives 150% resistance to nearby allies which functionally makes all reanimates immortal, it also gives 25% chance to reanimate skeleton and Wolf stance, the idea is so simple yet so effective, reanimate immortal skeleton then switch to wolf stance and black mass (oh yeah fucking rip black mass too) to negate the slow ass movement speed of skeleton and turn them into a swarmin deathball. Plus it's so damn cool and thematic too. Oh and my poor boi Trendkill, which leads us to...

3/Trendkill RW removal. This item is hand down the BIS item for reanimate necro build, for anyone who doesn't know or forget, it gives +(36 to 42) to Kraken Stance and 25% Reanimate as: (1256 to 1553)* (the same pool as Hidden Shrine) and some small amount of stance radius. This is always my chase item every season, huge amount of reanimate of your choice, I'll just cut to the chase, out of all my experimentations, Warforged Shaman is the best one for this build, they upped the clearspeed around 10x which is absolutely insane. It's always fun getting my hand on the elemental runes required then just farm Fauzt or K3K for perfect gem for rerolling (yeah good luck doing something like that post 2.0 lol). And yet even with Trendkill being BIS, it is not the absolute end all be all for the build. Shadowfiend mentioned above as well as a bunch of other SU like Freakshow (Slain Soul barrel spam before the damage got nerfed to oblivion) Vascud Crisis/Windforce/Fleshstinger (TA Priestess reanimate, exceptionally good clearing that gives Warforged Shaman Trendkill a run for it money with Phalanx and Tremor spam). This is something that has been going down slowly overtime.

4/Hellspeak shield losing Devil's Fang Totem oskill. The core of the build is to use sacrifices mooks spawn from Devil's Fang Totem (since sacrifices got absolutely gutted a long time ago) + Pestilence to spawn huge amount of reanimate. Since the item no longer has access to it, the build is basically dead or worse sent back to the stone age with spamming Sacrifice, not that it has to worry about that with all the change mentioned above.

5/The culling of all items with reanimate, also special mention to reanimate MO like Fallen and Skeleton getting completely removed. I get it, reducing lags and also easy meatshield and all that, that doesn't mean it stinks any much less. Imo removing buggy reanimate like most of the bosses like Inarius/Mephisto/Dark Star Dragon that just die upon getting touched is a good thing. But removing the one that works perfectly like Quov Tsin or the TA Priestess just feels real bad. And this is part of the SU culling that happened back then, I think due to the build unpopularity the devs either didn't know or deem it not worth it in the grandscheme of things.

Final words: So what am I trying to say after that wall of text? Am I expecting the devs to revive Reanimate Necro to its full glory? am I just salty that the direction that game is going, more linear build and progression means sometimes sacrificing niche builds such as this? well, yes of course, but also no, I don't think there's any way to bring back such a build in the current 2.0 era, there are just so many restriction with skills and mechanic that I don't think the devs are willing to change so much stuffs just to revive 1 old unpopular dead build. I personally don't like the game gradually moving from the sandbox design of the old day to the more linear cookie cutter of the current 2.0 era. And no this is not a recent thing, this has been happening way waaay back then with small changes that stacked up over a long time. I know there's a lot of people that like the new more linear way of playing and I can respect that. Not like I can't appreciate coming back for a week or two every season and get to Fauzt with a new toon, it is fun, just not the fun that I used to be able to have way back when.

[Lynderika]

.

Now that's a very cool anecdote. Thanks for the share ! Though, as you said, it's pretty late, I can imagine very well how much of a finishing blow it was to see that every reanimate became a walker or skeleton archer in 2.0. Not only the randoms one but even on the reanimate dedicated items... This definitely need working.
And, not even talking about the many ways to improve them such as the many stances, totems etc you had before, a Necromancer having an army of reanimates behind him just makes perfect sense, and it should to at least be possible to do so.

[Bljadzon]

words

As a person who made a rather half-assed but effective reanimate build once, I feel you.
I never really followed patch notes letter by letter so I don't know when they were removed, but casting sacrifices and not seeing a few priests (or even those "optimized" skeleton warriors to be honest) was disheartening.

[MirriCatWarrior]

What version you veterans consider most "fun" and itemization/player freedom rich?

I will try Ultimative XVI. Last time i played this mod was in times when Brother Laz was in charge (so looong time ago) and im also finding this newest version far more.... boring tbh.
But also i remember that it was indeed laggy with all procs and reanimates... someone in this thread mentioned something called "d2dx fps fix"... can someone point me to download? Or upload it somewhere? Also link to plugy (or upload somewhere plx) working with Ultimative VXI would be appreciated.
I will try to search on my own but aby help obout how to play lagfree and in 1024x768 would be appreciated.

[heamn]

► Show Spoiler

Below are my opinion on the state of the game from 2.0 onward, all are commented with builds that i've recently played for a honest "review"..

1) Build Diversity vs Build Competency

Perhaps diversity isn't the right word for it, I feel like build "diversity" is there, more like build "competency" isn't there

For example, this build that was showcased last league, <2.0> Holy Shock Psicrowner - Mini Guide, it uses clever interaction from paladin to boost INT for the holy shock damage, damage wise it's definitely falling behind, however for the coverage and if you are aiming to farm Fautz cozily while binging netflix? the build is 10/10, however the build is definitely shit at bossing though.

NOW, throw in Bowazon into the equation, if you are after 100% farming efficiency, you are better off rolling with bowazon instead of try-harding with a non-meta build

Why so? One huge thing about Median XL is that no build does everything, there are always caveats, therefor belladonna extract exist, intuitive? no, definitely no.

But when you compare both build taken for example, it's way easier to respec bowazon into bossing spec, as most gears stays about the same, while the Holy Shock Pala will need much more effort, not to mention that you need a great rune to actually getting the latter to roll.

With this in mind, i feel it's not worth my time trying another build, why waste my time if there's a try and true build? Hence my take on build diversity is there, they are simply just not competent enough.

You know as the author of the psicrown holy shock build, I'd like to add a few points.

1. You're right, the single target is atrocious.
2. The level of investment required in order to perform compared to a bow zon is astronomical. All my gear is UMO'd, I have a sleep trophied twice with the awakening. I'm using a raven familiar relic and I think 9 psicrown relics. It's EXTREME investment.
3. In terms of ease of farming for fauz, dunc, vizjun and teganze it is FAR superior to bow zon. I can do P8 for all of those zones comfortably. Bow zon can hardly handle more than P1 without slowing down significantly.
4. It is terrible in scosglen. The accessibility of scosglen is limited to so few builds that overgearing the fuck out of a non meta build still doesn't allow you to go there. Even worse now with the druid bosses.
5. Holy shock was made in 2.0 with the idea that it could be paired with lightning spells. This is a lie. It baits people into making the wrong build and itemization decisions. Holy shock does not scale with lightning spell damage, skill levels or spell focus. Truthfully, I do not see that skill working with anything other than psicrown. So in terms of broad usability Holy Shock serves 2 purposes: Supporting psicrown or farming ACs in normal nilhatak.
6. Despite my above points, I'm still very glad that I was even allowed to make an off meta build like this. I have absolutely no problem needing to overinvest in a build. Even to completely ridiculous extents. But at the end of the day, the build better fucking feel good. This one did... but that isn't the case for many other skills I've given the light of day. And THAT is my problem with build diversity. It shouldn't be ones and zeroes. This build is good, this build is not. Some skills are mechanically superior and should require heavier investment to deal the necessary damage to tackle certain things. But instead we're left with a buttload of skills that are unusable regardless of how invested in them you are.

1) Yeh, no build does everything, but for a cozy farming char, it's 10/10
2 & 3). What i did was just preparing the psicrown rw helm and the holy shock staff with your recommended gears, without the relics you had though, by comparing this to a ok crafted bow on bowazon on P1, hence i got the impression of they are on par
4) yeh, non meta builds just wont cut it at scolsgen
5) glad you bring this build to light, again, its brilliant to make use of pala to boost the int
6) dw bro, i'm on the same boat, the game needs more balancing

[heamn]

► Show Spoiler

I'm still able to have fun with 2.1, but do largely agree with your points.


When runewords were reworked, a lot of "easy" upgrades were lost, and overall itemization is, comparatively, kind of unflexible.
Some of the in-between runewords were nice to have for example with a WDM char and you found a sacred base early-midgame for a super quick upgrade. Didn't last you forever but it was so fast and easy to make, that it was undoubtedly worth it.
Sacred base + 1 jewel for socket, and then RW = gg

IMO a nice way to see runewords for progression is that they can be a cheap and easy alternative if you weren't particularly lucky with drops. Not quite as strong, but still a way to keep progressing.

Late game they can be OP ofc.

But yeah, nowadays a lot was lost in terms of itemization options.
Some of the newer RWs are cool though.

I'm actually still having fun despite of the criticism, or hopefully being taken as constructive criticism, and to my surprise dev seems to be taking in feedbacks too, example viewtopic.php?p=528674#p528674, and this patch they did change how skele being summon and bend the shadow got buffed, playing a summoner necro now feels way smoother

strongly agree that endgame RW has some really interesting combos, but most are gated behind great runes, which i often feels stuck between gear transitioning to farm fautz, especially seeing that i mainly do SSF and farming with one character to fuel another kinda beat the purpose.

that said, one can always hope that next patch going to get better, as suggested above, devs seems to be listening to constructive criticism

[Taem]

I would like to address some of the comments I have read so far. First of all, thank you to everyone who posted in this thread so far, rather you agree there is an issue or not. I hope to some degree or another that the developers take notice of at least some of the things stated here by the players concerned enough to speak out and voice their opinions on this game we all love, and perhaps in future patches, there will be changes for the betterment of the game. I also wanted to say to the developers of MXL that despite this critical writeup, I greatly appreciate your time and effort in creating such a wonderful mod! I’m sorry the past couple of patches is not “doing it” for me, however it is still wonderful to see the effort you guys put into this work of passion, and I highly respect that.

Re post #5: viewtopic.php?p=546393#p546393

TBH altoiddealer, I also really love the changes 2.0 has brought… and that is what made it so freaking hard for me to clearly define what I felt were the precise mechanics draining the fun out (for me). I loved the increased resolution, the look of the new skill tabs, the new monsters on the maps, the new ubers and uber layout, most of the progression from Normal to Hell, the quality of life changes… there is so much I absolutely love starting in the 2.0 series, it really felt terrible not knowing why it just is not fun to play until I pinpointed it. I like your idea about adding a new monster type in Fautz, perhaps something to do with the five bosses? Personally, I always felt they should be harder to kill, and have a much higher chance of dropping a great rune. Perhaps if they also had their own special monster units, a new type of monster, around them to spice up the difficulty?

Re post #7: viewtopic.php?p=546402#p546402

Zennith, I agree with you that the path this mod needs to take is a to bring back some of the mechanics that were taken away. And you are absolutely right about removing shadows to increase performance!

Re post #8: viewtopic.php?p=546405#p546405

Siosilvar, I do not agree with you, sorry. You are comparing apples to oranges here. I am stating that because many skills are now split into two, you simply do not have a choice where to place your skill points anymore to be effective… they must almost exclusively be in your sub-tree. This was absolutely not true prior to 2.0 and you know it! Most skills pre-2.0 on your tree were 1-pointers with focus only into 1 or 2 skills in that tree, and you were free to place the rest of your points where you saw fit. 2.0 completely removed that ability… Once you set down a sub-tree path, you really don’t get any other options if you want to succeed end-game!

Re post #9: viewtopic.php?p=546408#p546408

Lynderika, you must be misunderstanding what I wrote because I was not attacking items at all… I was attacking a (lack) of items. The difference between those two things is quite enormous. I actually feel the items that are in the 2.0 series are quite well crafted, however what I said was that because of the limited pool, your choices as a player are very stringent now, and having so few choices at endgame is just not fun. I hope that clears things up for you regarding my stance on items. Regarding mercenaries, I also do not think they should be immortal, so there is no disagreement there, and I apologize if you felt I was saying such because I was not.

“so attacking devs when they do something and telling they kill the game when it... Literally would have been dead since years if nobody had taken it, just because it's not in your direction, is ungrateful.”

Thus far into the posts, I do not believe a single poster has attacked the developers, only stated their opinions strongly. This entire thread is literally for critical analysis of areas us players feel need improvement. The poster you quoted come across strongly when stating it is, “THEIR game, not ours,” but this is factual, and when he/she alluded to these changes, “running it into the ground” in reference to where the MOD is headed, this is merely this posters opinion, but this is not attacking anyone! An attack is a blatant and derogatory accusation, usually baseless in nature, such as saying, “douche bag”, or “idiot who can’t code”, or something of that nature. The poster you quoted made no attack, and was merely voicing an opinion on the state of affairs.

Re post #10: https://forum.median-xl.com/viewtopic.php?p=546417#p546417

Thank you for voicing your thoughts Bljadzon. It seems we will have to agree to disagree. As I said in my OP, I am sharing my opinions, and they may not match your experience at all, but I value your experience as well! I think it is important to be able to see points of view objectively through the lens of everyone’s eyes, which include the players who are finding this new patch to be the best there ever was. There is a reason they feel that way, and if they could pinpoint it, we can debate the merits of the old system versus the new and perhaps learn something from one another that can help develop this game further if the devs read our analysis.

Re post #11: viewtopic.php?p=546426#p546426

Yes, I too loved Jewel-words Zennith. I really don’t know why they were stealth-removed? It really made Normal difficulty more fun and less grindy!

Re post #15: viewtopic.php?p=546436#p546436

Damn ParticuLarry, you hit the freaking nail on the head brother right there: “The system itself is fine. It's just used incorrectly. If it was used correctly that would enhance the variety for the players, but the way it is right now, rather enforces exactly what you said.” Yes, I agree 100% with what you wrote above that, and how the skill system could be more meaningful with more diversity! Also with your comments on Endgame items! You are on fucking fire man, lol! Loving it! Oh snap, lol just read what you said about Mercs and the paragraph below as well! Absolutely true!!! They helped carry the shitty sub-classes along. A lot of great ideas for multiplayer! I love it because this is what I believe the devs need to hear to find a way to improve this MOD further. All good stuff you said, and I agree with every single thing you wrote!

Re post #16: viewtopic.php?p=546466#p546466

ChuckNoRis, you may have been here the longest of the other posters in this thread so far. As with the poster above you, I agree with what you are saying about procs and reanimates. Those were so much fun, you’d get that giddy feeling inside when setting off a proc chain, it was next level fun! Laz compensated by making the end game near impossible, but man was it fucking fun! And I agree with you on trophies… they were an extra in Laz era and really not necessary to finish most endgame ubers but now without several of them, forget it, you are toast! This forces you to do endless grinding – of the same fucking uber to make it worse – over and over, which is so far beyond boring it should be a legally punishable crime!



I didn't have time to comment directly to everyone, but I see a lot more great comments I would like to comment on past Chucks post, but I have to go to bed now! I’ll pick back up on this thread where I left off tomorrow afternoon! Take care everyone!

[Lynderika]

I was attacking a (lack) of items.

The thing is, I personally have more gear options in 2.1 than I had in 1.0 for the builds I play. But, of course I agree about wanting more possibilities in term of oskills, procs, items combos, having hybrids items options with things like summoner and melee stats (

Marchosias' Hatred

Marchosias' Hatred
Heavy Belt (Sacred)
Defense: (3111 - 3455) to (3359 - 3731)
Required Level: 90
Required Strength: 625
Item Level: 1
5% Chance to cast level 3 Bladestorm on Melee Attack
3% Chance of Crushing Blow
Weapon Physical Damage +(55 to 60)%
+(144 to 171)% Enhanced Defense
(6 to 10)% to Strength
Socketed (2)

Marchosias' Essence
(Druid Werewolf Set)

is a good exemple, very nice item for say, physical clawsin with bats, despite being a random druid set belt. You really have to search for it), gimmickey items, etc... No problems here. For one thing, many generic "Weapons" runewords could be added in this direction, currently the "weapons" part is the sad part of the runeword list, and this is the perfect opportunity. I believe that Oskills should be more tied to runewords in general, as it is a way more healthy way to get them than relics in any aspect.
But endgame items? There's a few big things, like every ied builds absolutely wanting some quov tsin's and bad moods at some point, no question asked. Thoses can clearly be described, as you said, as a clear path. And it's kinda boring, because most players just do not play thoses build before buying theses items because of how strong they are. Theses are good exemples.

But let's take another one. Previously, after my tu's gloves, as a dex 2h physical spec, I had the choice between

Hammerfist

Hammerfist
Gauntlets (Sacred)
Defense: (1227 - 1450) to (1436 - 1697)
Required Level: 100
Required Strength: 625
Item Level: 105
Adds (1 to 15)-(20 to 30) Damage
5% Life stolen per Hit
+(15 to 25) to Spiral Dance
5% Chance of Crushing Blow
Weapon Physical Damage +(30 to 60)%
+(120 to 160)% Enhanced Defense
Elemental Resists +15%
Socketed (4)

or

Rogue Foresight

Rogue Foresight
Heavy Gloves (Sacred)
Defense: 492 to 522
Required Level: 100
Required Strength: 525
Item Level: 120
+1 to All Skills
5% Deadly Strike
-10% to Strength
20% to Dexterity
Physical Resist 5%
Socketed (4)

, with why not

Blind Anger

Blind Anger
Light Gauntlets (Sacred)
Defense: (1179 - 1447) to (1342 - 1647)
Required Level: 100
Required Strength: 600
Item Level: 105
8% Chance to cast level 13 Crucify on Melee Attack
+(0 to 1) to All Skills
(1 to 5)% Chance of Crushing Blow
Blinds Attacker +3
+(120 to 170)% Enhanced Defense
(11 to 15)% to All Attributes
Socketed (4)

while waiting for thoses, or even

Snowsquall

Snowsquall
Gloves
'GlaIu'
Runeword Level: 105
+1% Maximum Cold Resist per 80% Cold Resist
+1 to All Skills
20% Hit Recovery
Adds 100-200 Cold Damage
(3 to 5)% Innate Elemental Damage
-(7 to 10)% to Enemy Cold Resistance
Slow Target 20%
+200% Enhanced Defense
+(21 to 25) to Dexterity
Cold Absorb (3 to 5)%

because slow target is amazing and can help well. Now,

Savage

Savage
Gloves
'YstFelKa'
Runeword Level: 110
+1% Weapon Physical Damage per 50 Strength or Dexterity
(Whichever is Higher)
75% Attack Speed
+10 Damage
+200% Enhanced Defense
+(10 to 40) to all Attributes
10% to Strength
10% to Dexterity
Maximum Cold Resist +1%
Cold Resist +25%
10% Magic Find

is better than any of them, in any aspect.
Does Savage make my build lack diversity? No, it's the opposite, it added an item. Hammerfist and Rogue still are the same (ok though rogue does not have the nova spike passive anymore), if I want to use them, I can just do it. The game did not get harder than before, in the time I used thoses items, so I can still do the content with them, and have no reason to throw them away like trash.
I kind of get the idea that what you want not only is gear diversity, but also that every option are balanced and can be "meta", and that is very, very hard thing to do. For now, I agree to just add things, possibilities, maybe why not bring back a few old things, and see what is fun rather than what is strong.