Thank you for the replies, everyone!
---
physics wrote:You've pointed out differences in avoid between classes but, in my opinion, have failed to illustrate why that's a bad thing. Some specificity in your argument would be nice (which is my criticism of pretty much every criticism raised against this game).
First of all, I would just like to say that I think this game is fantastic -- it's the best ARPG I have ever played. So please understand that I am just discussing things I think could maybe be changed or improved as the game is iterated on because I find it interesting and having discussions can help with that (even if the game is already in a good place, which it is!). I'm just starting from a thought I have and trying to see if other people's thoughts do (or do not) line up with that to create a discussion.
physics wrote:You say "certain fights feel pretty bad if your class does not have any Avoid"; which ones? The main one that comes to mind is Laz (and maaaaybe Sleep), both of which can be completed without avoid. Yes avoid is a powerful defensive layer, yes avoid can make these fights easier, but no, I don't think avoid is single-handedly trivializing content.
For say, The Sleep and also Invasion III, I would not say Avoid fully trivializes the content -- but it does significantly change the fight compared to classes who do not have Avoid. See below re: my Barb vs Zon on Invasion for more details.
physics wrote:It's also worth mentioning T7 lab modifier specifically targets builds relying on block and avoid, so it isn't a magic bullet.
I think Lab mods are probably best left to a totally separate discussion since there is a lot going on in Labs that does not happen anywhere else (leech effectiveness, curse duration, extra resistance checks, etc. etc.)
physics wrote:Lastly, even if avoid were imbalanced as you say, I would still disagree with all of your proposed changes. Nerfing avoid or giving every class access to avoid are both homogenizing class identity which, in my opinion, is bad for the game in the long run.
I agree with your sentiment 100% about not wanting to homogenize class identity. However, I don't think doing tweaks to "slightly homogenize" is a bad thing, I don't think that any adjustment that brings one class closer to another in some way guarantees that you will instantly have a completely homogenized feel across all classes.
Marco wrote:at the end of the day avoid can simply be viewed as another layer of EHP and characters that have access to it are balanced accordingly. the only difference with HP is that there is a rng element. For example a char with 10k hp 50% avoid (20k effective HP) can die from two 5k blows with bad luck but it can also survive two 20k blows. However, avoid loses to hp because in zones with lockout you end up having to scale hp as well and it's less predictable. So HP still has the throne for most op defensive stat and it also scales healing.
I think for many encounters, it really is "just more EHP" as you say. But for some, Avoid I think has far more value than the EHP suggests.
For instance, when I did
Invasion III on my Ele Barb, I didn't even know about the AoE circle mechanic when he goes invuln. Now, part of that is because as a Melee class I was near him always. But if you watch the video I do still get hit by it, but since I had something like 40% avoid I dodged several of the hits which meant it never killed me. Because of that, I never even realized the mechanic existed. When I do that fight on my Caster zon, it is death every time -- this was confusing and I only found out about the mechanic after several attempts of trying to figure out what was going on in the first place. This could certainly be explained as something that I just need to adapt to because the class is different, but there is one more piece to the puzzle. The random intervals that he chooses to (or not to) do the AoE circle death make the fight feel very "RNG", and Avoid vastly increases the number of chances the player has to deal with this mechanic and successfully complete the fight. I think if the AoE circle death mechanic was more telegraphed or regular, such as Uldyssian's starfall ceiling shake move, it would feel less like an Avoid check and more like a full on boss mechanic. But as it is so far, it feels like I always have several attempts on my Zon where I just barely don't notice the AoE is starting and I die instantly. Or I do notice it, but I am very slightly out of the proximity and the tics still kill me before I can micro walk into the center. On an Avoid character, those would likely not end up in deaths most of the time since the move hits several times quickly in succession.
I am not arguing that every fight should be exactly the same or that classes should not have strengths or weaknesses, but I do think that mechanics which kill you via many hits are both common in higher end fights and significantly nullified by avoid moreso than any other defense layer.
Marco wrote:regarding block, the reason it was capped at 50% was due to 1h setups dex overshadowing 2h str on specs which give you that choice, like melee nec, wolf druid, etc. Builds that don't have that choice usually have some way to scale block back to 70-80 like before.
Just reiterating that I super duper agree with this and really like it
Marco wrote:one idea about avoid imo is to potentially separate avoid back into 3 stats like in vanilla (avoid, evade and dodge). that allows for more design space which is a good thing.
I can't decide if I think I would or would not like this? On the one hand, yes it has more design space. Also, I rather like the simplicity of Avoid currently? The original D2 3-way split always felt a bit awkward to me. What about a 2-way split where you had a chance to Avoid anything (melee/projectile both) while standing still, but then another stat to avoid anything (melee/projectile) while moving? Or maybe a 3-way split still, but split it via melee/ranged/spell, but they always affect you whether you are standing or moving? Just spitballing
