RequiemLux wrote:Berkabus1 wrote:Is there any way to tag devs to This topic?
No need to tag anyone, we are aware of everything
*cue ominous music*
we know your secrets
Properly assessing the importance of oskills
There are a few good oskills like Tantrum that even have sort of cult following for them.
There are a few oskills that are decent and even have some sense of progress built in (arrow swarm, frozen avatar, whirlwind, wyrd)
There are some endgame things that are very nice (Disco inferno, BFG, cherub)
There are even proc builds that are somewhat usable (double xorine ring punisher spam ♡♡♡).
My sincere wish is that any skill could be picked up, geared somewhat and used for at least one purpose.
There are a few oskills that are decent and even have some sense of progress built in (arrow swarm, frozen avatar, whirlwind, wyrd)
There are some endgame things that are very nice (Disco inferno, BFG, cherub)
There are even proc builds that are somewhat usable (double xorine ring punisher spam ♡♡♡).
My sincere wish is that any skill could be picked up, geared somewhat and used for at least one purpose.
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I can see where the devs are coming from and I sympathize deeply with them. When you have a playerbase of this size and age compared to the size and direction of your development team, it can be difficult to make changes of any kind at all because you risk alienating existing customers because they're interested in a product that no longer exists.
Community is Everything:
However, I think the devs acknowledge this fundamental fact above all others: People are into TSW because it provides a vital thing that SP or older versions wouldn't have - player interaction. The health of the online community is vital and a lot of people play solely because they crave that fun feeling of playing alongside everyone else, feeling like their actions matter. Informal studies of ARPG player cycles have mounds of evidence to work with from previous ARPGs such as D3 and PoE.
How do you maintain that community and economy? Ordinarily, user retention with a decade's worth of features is trivial. They're already invested, they'll come back no matter what. Logically, you should focus on trying to grow your top of funnel and bring in a wide swath of new users. Some of them will stick, and your invested playerbase will grow. I believe that the team is trying to do this by refining the core classes until they're in an ideal state (while still juggling content additions like Legion or Scosglen and full item reworks such as the entire RW selection).
Development Focus on Core Class Skills / Economy Balance:
As a previous poster said, the move away from oskills since Ultimative towards polishing the core classes bears out this conclusion: oskills have been handled heavy-handedly for fear of detracting from native class skills or upsetting the economy. Tribeam is a recent (meta-defining) example of this and it has received cumulative nerfs to where it is now in a more balanced state (it can get results, but only from the most invested users). Many other oskills described in this thread have languished in worst states for many more years, but it is understandable that it was not the team's priority to go after them.
But MXL has maintained similar numbers for a long time (TSW charts show steady growth over the years, rather than explosive growth seen in 2.0 and in other ARPG re-launch cycles). Obviously, there isn't much of a marketing machine at work (It's basically 95% word of mouth), so I think everyone is impressed by how a single trailer video for 2.0 yielded the player counts that it did.
2.1 has not had similar results and some decisions have fallen flat. The bow druid rework, for example, only saw activity during its season, and then it was never heard from again in 2.0 and 2.1. While we are still in the middle of this season, I feel that players are already slipping and interest has heavily declined due to the particulars of balance changes. Obviously, things have gone too far now and a mid-season balance patch won't be enough to revive it so it would be better to keep the changes for next season.
Veteran Players Want Something New:
I think that many players have felt and expressed similar sentiments. I am afraid that this could be the start of something no developer would ever want: veteran alienation. Former loyal customers are now quitting, and not only that, but they're grumbling to their friends and their friends are quitting too. Some of these people are leaving because they're disgruntled with the way the game is being handled, while others are leaving simply because their friends are leaving. But this all has a cumulative, rippling effect. Maybe they'll come back for the next season, and the next. But if things keep going as they are, with changes not hitting the right mark, these people might move on for good.
My Point:
Now that we've finally gone over all the background, I can talk about the real point of my post:
The OP's analysis of oskills is grounded in years of expertise and backed up by evidence. If you combine that with the above history and trajectory of the game, oskill content seems perfectly poised to be just what veteran players need to revitalize their interest in the game. Here is some content that already has roots in the base items of the game. You don't need a rework on the level of bow druid, cold sorc, or javazon; even a mere numerical pass would be better than nothing, enough to revitalize some interest in the game.
You could do so much more than mere numbers. You could do so much with oskills and create that coveted flywheel effect, where players will play and play and play and the community will be teeming with motivation to farm, to sell items, to create build guides, and to keep playing the game over with different characters and builds, not just with the one flavor-of-the-month build that got reworked.
A poster made an earlier point about the lack of documentation for oskills and how that detracted from a casual or new player experience, because uncertainly investing into something like that could result in (and in the current state of balance, would definitely result in) a failed character and a sour season. New players, unlike veterans, might play one character at most and will not seek out solutions as readily or with as much knowledge.
Some might say that's the reason why native class skills should be invested in fully, so new players can play anything and have a guaranteed ride into the later content of the game where they'll really be hooked. (although many class skills could use some tweaks, as people constantly advise that you use this and that to level up, then switch into your final build)
But I say: Why not let your veterans handle the documentation for you through build guides? You only need to give them a reason, and that reason is: viable numbers and different and fun playstyle. Build guides are popular in ARPGs: they're complex games, everyone's a working adult, so guides are the natural answer. Oskills don't need dev documentation: they just need numerical and mechanical passes and then the community will do the rest.
The dev team has done a commendable job in improving the new player onboarding since Laz first created the mod and 2.0 really shows that, with great features like in-game character stats (no longer needing to rely on D2Stats for anything but loot filtering feels amazing). The native class work has already been done. While more work could be done on class skills, an oskill rework seems like the next logical progression for improving both new and veteran player experience and improving the playerbase's longevity.
An oskill guide by a veteran could be the next step in that new player's progression into becoming a returning customer and simultaneously reverse the negative direction that veterans (who have an outsized impact on the community economy with respect to pushing the top content of the season and farming items efficiently) have been feeling.
As a final example of my own enthusiasm, here is an oskill rework I thought of.
Avalanche (not Summon Avalanche) is an oskill spell too mediocre to be used right now. But with the right tweaking and theming, it could be very cool. It could occupy a different niche from, say, Ice Bolt Nova, but still have reasons to be played. Here are some ideas:
The assets are already there. The customer interest is already there. The potential is there. The fact that suggestions are being made, that project proposals and analyses are basically being drawn up by non-team members, is telling. I hope the team takes these ideas into serious consideration for their near-term development; the idea of minimal effort for maximal gain isn't a short-cut to results, it's just sensible practice.
Community is Everything:
However, I think the devs acknowledge this fundamental fact above all others: People are into TSW because it provides a vital thing that SP or older versions wouldn't have - player interaction. The health of the online community is vital and a lot of people play solely because they crave that fun feeling of playing alongside everyone else, feeling like their actions matter. Informal studies of ARPG player cycles have mounds of evidence to work with from previous ARPGs such as D3 and PoE.
How do you maintain that community and economy? Ordinarily, user retention with a decade's worth of features is trivial. They're already invested, they'll come back no matter what. Logically, you should focus on trying to grow your top of funnel and bring in a wide swath of new users. Some of them will stick, and your invested playerbase will grow. I believe that the team is trying to do this by refining the core classes until they're in an ideal state (while still juggling content additions like Legion or Scosglen and full item reworks such as the entire RW selection).
Development Focus on Core Class Skills / Economy Balance:
As a previous poster said, the move away from oskills since Ultimative towards polishing the core classes bears out this conclusion: oskills have been handled heavy-handedly for fear of detracting from native class skills or upsetting the economy. Tribeam is a recent (meta-defining) example of this and it has received cumulative nerfs to where it is now in a more balanced state (it can get results, but only from the most invested users). Many other oskills described in this thread have languished in worst states for many more years, but it is understandable that it was not the team's priority to go after them.
But MXL has maintained similar numbers for a long time (TSW charts show steady growth over the years, rather than explosive growth seen in 2.0 and in other ARPG re-launch cycles). Obviously, there isn't much of a marketing machine at work (It's basically 95% word of mouth), so I think everyone is impressed by how a single trailer video for 2.0 yielded the player counts that it did.
2.1 has not had similar results and some decisions have fallen flat. The bow druid rework, for example, only saw activity during its season, and then it was never heard from again in 2.0 and 2.1. While we are still in the middle of this season, I feel that players are already slipping and interest has heavily declined due to the particulars of balance changes. Obviously, things have gone too far now and a mid-season balance patch won't be enough to revive it so it would be better to keep the changes for next season.
Veteran Players Want Something New:
I think that many players have felt and expressed similar sentiments. I am afraid that this could be the start of something no developer would ever want: veteran alienation. Former loyal customers are now quitting, and not only that, but they're grumbling to their friends and their friends are quitting too. Some of these people are leaving because they're disgruntled with the way the game is being handled, while others are leaving simply because their friends are leaving. But this all has a cumulative, rippling effect. Maybe they'll come back for the next season, and the next. But if things keep going as they are, with changes not hitting the right mark, these people might move on for good.
My Point:
Now that we've finally gone over all the background, I can talk about the real point of my post:
The OP's analysis of oskills is grounded in years of expertise and backed up by evidence. If you combine that with the above history and trajectory of the game, oskill content seems perfectly poised to be just what veteran players need to revitalize their interest in the game. Here is some content that already has roots in the base items of the game. You don't need a rework on the level of bow druid, cold sorc, or javazon; even a mere numerical pass would be better than nothing, enough to revitalize some interest in the game.
You could do so much more than mere numbers. You could do so much with oskills and create that coveted flywheel effect, where players will play and play and play and the community will be teeming with motivation to farm, to sell items, to create build guides, and to keep playing the game over with different characters and builds, not just with the one flavor-of-the-month build that got reworked.
A poster made an earlier point about the lack of documentation for oskills and how that detracted from a casual or new player experience, because uncertainly investing into something like that could result in (and in the current state of balance, would definitely result in) a failed character and a sour season. New players, unlike veterans, might play one character at most and will not seek out solutions as readily or with as much knowledge.
Some might say that's the reason why native class skills should be invested in fully, so new players can play anything and have a guaranteed ride into the later content of the game where they'll really be hooked. (although many class skills could use some tweaks, as people constantly advise that you use this and that to level up, then switch into your final build)
But I say: Why not let your veterans handle the documentation for you through build guides? You only need to give them a reason, and that reason is: viable numbers and different and fun playstyle. Build guides are popular in ARPGs: they're complex games, everyone's a working adult, so guides are the natural answer. Oskills don't need dev documentation: they just need numerical and mechanical passes and then the community will do the rest.
The dev team has done a commendable job in improving the new player onboarding since Laz first created the mod and 2.0 really shows that, with great features like in-game character stats (no longer needing to rely on D2Stats for anything but loot filtering feels amazing). The native class work has already been done. While more work could be done on class skills, an oskill rework seems like the next logical progression for improving both new and veteran player experience and improving the playerbase's longevity.
An oskill guide by a veteran could be the next step in that new player's progression into becoming a returning customer and simultaneously reverse the negative direction that veterans (who have an outsized impact on the community economy with respect to pushing the top content of the season and farming items efficiently) have been feeling.
As a final example of my own enthusiasm, here is an oskill rework I thought of.
Avalanche (not Summon Avalanche) is an oskill spell too mediocre to be used right now. But with the right tweaking and theming, it could be very cool. It could occupy a different niche from, say, Ice Bolt Nova, but still have reasons to be played. Here are some ideas:
- - Slow-moving at first, but travels a little faster at the end (like an avalanche)
- Deals more damage at the forward edge of the spell and minor damage in the wider area behind the edge
- Can cast multiple times as you move along an area, then move your character along with the traveling edge
- Give it numbers (with 1k SF and 300-400 CSD and 135-170 pierce) that let you do P1-3 Scosglen and middle Labs, rather than maybe P1 Fauzt if you try way too hard
- Can do Ubers if you can get the edge to hit just right, a little like Abyss except actually able to kill packs of enemies
- Makes you feel like a mighty avalanche due to the move - cast farming playstyle, very RP and character-feeling thematic
The assets are already there. The customer interest is already there. The potential is there. The fact that suggestions are being made, that project proposals and analyses are basically being drawn up by non-team members, is telling. I hope the team takes these ideas into serious consideration for their near-term development; the idea of minimal effort for maximal gain isn't a short-cut to results, it's just sensible practice.
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abwhorent wrote:I can see where the devs are coming from and I sympathize deeply with them. When you have a playerbase of this size and age compared to the size and direction of your development team, it can be difficult to make changes of any kind at all because you risk alienating existing customers because they're interested in a product that no longer exists.
Community is Everything:
However, I think the devs acknowledge this fundamental fact above all others: People are into TSW because it provides a vital thing that SP or older versions wouldn't have - player interaction. The health of the online community is vital and a lot of people play solely because they crave that fun feeling of playing alongside everyone else, feeling like their actions matter. Informal studies of ARPG player cycles have mounds of evidence to work with from previous ARPGs such as D3 and PoE.
How do you maintain that community and economy? Ordinarily, user retention with a decade's worth of features is trivial. They're already invested, they'll come back no matter what. Logically, you should focus on trying to grow your top of funnel and bring in a wide swath of new users. Some of them will stick, and your invested playerbase will grow. I believe that the team is trying to do this by refining the core classes until they're in an ideal state (while still juggling content additions like Legion or Scosglen and full item reworks such as the entire RW selection).
Development Focus on Core Class Skills / Economy Balance:
As a previous poster said, the move away from oskills since Ultimative towards polishing the core classes bears out this conclusion: oskills have been handled heavy-handedly for fear of detracting from native class skills or upsetting the economy. Tribeam is a recent (meta-defining) example of this and it has received cumulative nerfs to where it is now in a more balanced state (it can get results, but only from the most invested users). Many other oskills described in this thread have languished in worst states for many more years, but it is understandable that it was not the team's priority to go after them.
But MXL has maintained similar numbers for a long time (TSW charts show steady growth over the years, rather than explosive growth seen in 2.0 and in other ARPG re-launch cycles). Obviously, there isn't much of a marketing machine at work (It's basically 95% word of mouth), so I think everyone is impressed by how a single trailer video for 2.0 yielded the player counts that it did.
2.1 has not had similar results and some decisions have fallen flat. The bow druid rework, for example, only saw activity during its season, and then it was never heard from again in 2.0 and 2.1. While we are still in the middle of this season, I feel that players are already slipping and interest has heavily declined due to the particulars of balance changes. Obviously, things have gone too far now and a mid-season balance patch won't be enough to revive it so it would be better to keep the changes for next season.
Veteran Players Want Something New:
I think that many players have felt and expressed similar sentiments. I am afraid that this could be the start of something no developer would ever want: veteran alienation. Former loyal customers are now quitting, and not only that, but they're grumbling to their friends and their friends are quitting too. Some of these people are leaving because they're disgruntled with the way the game is being handled, while others are leaving simply because their friends are leaving. But this all has a cumulative, rippling effect. Maybe they'll come back for the next season, and the next. But if things keep going as they are, with changes not hitting the right mark, these people might move on for good.
My Point:
Now that we've finally gone over all the background, I can talk about the real point of my post:
The OP's analysis of oskills is grounded in years of expertise and backed up by evidence. If you combine that with the above history and trajectory of the game, oskill content seems perfectly poised to be just what veteran players need to revitalize their interest in the game. Here is some content that already has roots in the base items of the game. You don't need a rework on the level of bow druid, cold sorc, or javazon; even a mere numerical pass would be better than nothing, enough to revitalize some interest in the game.
You could do so much more than mere numbers. You could do so much with oskills and create that coveted flywheel effect, where players will play and play and play and the community will be teeming with motivation to farm, to sell items, to create build guides, and to keep playing the game over with different characters and builds, not just with the one flavor-of-the-month build that got reworked.
A poster made an earlier point about the lack of documentation for oskills and how that detracted from a casual or new player experience, because uncertainly investing into something like that could result in (and in the current state of balance, would definitely result in) a failed character and a sour season. New players, unlike veterans, might play one character at most and will not seek out solutions as readily or with as much knowledge.
Some might say that's the reason why native class skills should be invested in fully, so new players can play anything and have a guaranteed ride into the later content of the game where they'll really be hooked. (although many class skills could use some tweaks, as people constantly advise that you use this and that to level up, then switch into your final build)
But I say: Why not let your veterans handle the documentation for you through build guides? You only need to give them a reason, and that reason is: viable numbers and different and fun playstyle. Build guides are popular in ARPGs: they're complex games, everyone's a working adult, so guides are the natural answer. Oskills don't need dev documentation: they just need numerical and mechanical passes and then the community will do the rest.
The dev team has done a commendable job in improving the new player onboarding since Laz first created the mod and 2.0 really shows that, with great features like in-game character stats (no longer needing to rely on D2Stats for anything but loot filtering feels amazing). The native class work has already been done. While more work could be done on class skills, an oskill rework seems like the next logical progression for improving both new and veteran player experience and improving the playerbase's longevity.
An oskill guide by a veteran could be the next step in that new player's progression into becoming a returning customer and simultaneously reverse the negative direction that veterans (who have an outsized impact on the community economy with respect to pushing the top content of the season and farming items efficiently) have been feeling.
As a final example of my own enthusiasm, here is an oskill rework I thought of.
Avalanche (not Summon Avalanche) is an oskill spell too mediocre to be used right now. But with the right tweaking and theming, it could be very cool. It could occupy a different niche from, say, Ice Bolt Nova, but still have reasons to be played. Here are some ideas:- Slow-moving at first, but travels a little faster at the end (like an avalanche)
Or just increase the dmg and don't do any of the fancy stuff lol
- Deals more damage at the forward edge of the spell and minor damage in the wider area behind the edge
- Can cast multiple times as you move along an area, then move your character along with the traveling edge
- Give it numbers (with 1k SF and 300-400 CSD and 135-170 pierce) that let you do P1-3 Scosglen and middle Labs, rather than maybe P1 Fauzt if you try way too hard
- Can do Ubers if you can get the edge to hit just right, a little like Abyss except actually able to kill packs of enemies
- Makes you feel like a mighty avalanche due to the move - cast farming playstyle, very RP and character-feeling thematic
The assets are already there. The customer interest is already there. The potential is there. The fact that suggestions are being made, that project proposals and analyses are basically being drawn up by non-team members, is telling. I hope the team takes these ideas into serious consideration for their near-term development; the idea of minimal effort for maximal gain isn't a short-cut to results, it's just sensible practice.
Bingo