What would bring you back to Median XL?

[Zennith]

Updated original post with some condensed information I've learned from this topic. Really enjoying seeing everyone come together in a calm and constructive manner. That's what I really wanted for this. Not expecting any changes to be done regarding the topic, but I enjoy reading everyone's idea's and preferences.

Thanks.

[iwansquall]

players setting and boosted drop rate for SP

not sure about now, but i played medianxl last time, the progression halt behind super RNG in order to obtain gear
while this encouraging trading in multiplayer, it just infuriating to get stuck in same power level long time
i believe the difference of level area have caused this (SSU+ not dropped at easier uber) and i stuck around fauzt level.

the RNG part was :
1. enchanted rune (the one that 1 layer above normal one)
2. elemental rune upgraded
3. great rune
4. SSU

mainly you also have tendency to get stuff that your current build dont need (unless you crazy single player playing multiple builds)
thus even more RNG that serve no value to you

i also think that shrinking RW list also was the biggest issue since now you have harder time to find upgrade
sure that not all of RWs are balanced, but at least i still can find upgrade here & there
i believe the newer RW that required multiple stuff from different source made it harder to obtain

yeah, i could just do the unethical way or i should just stop spending many hours playing which i did back then
recent cycle / relic change seem friendlier to this problem in recent update, but i havent excited to get back to mxl
and i hope it will fix the big RNG gap between fauzt & scosglen

*yes, im casual and i dont want to spend many hours with 0 gain.

[void]

I think it's very hard to pinpoint that one singular thing that makes everything less good than it could be, but since that's the question, in my opinion increasing the baseline power of any not-meta build would make the game much better.

I've been in favor of drop buffs for a long time, and I still am (because progression is fun), but the thing is that some specs are just inherently more powerful than others and can get by with minimal gear.
Drops are still good to have, but what would be much nicer would be inherent buffs to everything that's not already great, so that the drops don't matter that much anymore.
But currently, they do, especially for builds that need pierce or any other stat and don't get it inherently from skills. At the same time phys throw barb gets EVERYTHING from skills (stats%, hit% ewd, crit%, even FLAT damage, defensive stats, etc...), naturally that's gonna work out much better with almost any gear.

What I see is that some people say how OP Rend is/was, but the solution to that IMO is not to nerf Rend (much), but instead the takeaway is to give other specs something that is similarly effective.
Nerfing the good stuff makes the game boring or at the very least annoying to play.

Nothing feels as bad as having to gear up, say, psn sorc during midgame just for her to deal meh damage and die in 3 hits.
And nothing feels as nice as after that putting t1 throwing axe on barb and clearing Scos in 20 seconds.

But the best feeling would be if no spec was left behind. Either due to lack of good gear that is necessray or because there is just not as much potential.

[Muranty]

I think it's very hard to pinpoint that one singular thing that makes everything less good than it could be, but since that's the question, in my opinion increasing the baseline power of any not-meta build would make the game much better.

I've been in favor of drop buffs for a long time, and I still am (because progression is fun), but the thing is that some specs are just inherently more powerful than others and can get by with minimal gear.
Drops are still good to have, but what would be much nicer would be inherent buffs to everything that's not already great, so that the drops don't matter that much anymore.
But currently, they do, especially for builds that need pierce or any other stat and don't get it inherently from skills. At the same time phys throw barb gets EVERYTHING from skills (stats%, hit% ewd, crit%, even FLAT damage, defensive stats, etc...), naturally that's gonna work out much better with almost any gear.

What I see is that some people say how OP Rend is/was, but the solution to that IMO is not to nerf Rend (much), but instead the takeaway is to give other specs something that is similarly effective.
Nerfing the good stuff makes the game boring or at the very least annoying to play.

Nothing feels as bad as having to gear up, say, psn sorc during midgame just for her to deal meh damage and die in 3 hits.
And nothing feels as nice as after that putting t1 throwing axe on barb and clearing Scos in 20 seconds.

But the best feeling would be if no spec was left behind. Either due to lack of good gear that is necessray or because there is just not as much potential.

As for boosting builds. In my opinion, there are several such options, but people prefer to take the easy way out and use new/boosted/S Tier builds instead of looking for something more interesting. People can't or rather are lazy and don't want to look through the available items that give the possibility to create something other than the ones we see at the top of the ladder (which doesn't change the fact that we should get a balance from devs of builds that rely less on items). You can look through some profiles and you will find something that no one else uses now(I would say that currently there are less than 1 or 2% of such builds, including those forgotten and still working)
It's a pity to enjoy the game using only what someone will give us "like on a plate" and playing with typical builds emerging, for example, in guides on the forum or following top players of ladder. I felt it myself at the beginning of this season and I used the build from the forum, after a few days I started to feel that there is no pleasure when I do what 90% of other characters from my class and progress the same way, and the market with such number of the same builds is smashed so I decided to change the class and go back to something that I was using long time ago and hardly anyone uses it now and I started to enjoy the game.
Whats more, not only the balance but also the approach of the players would have to change.

[BearBearderBarb]

But currently, they do, especially for builds that need pierce or any other stat and don't get it inherently from skills.

The current situation with pierce is a result of several changes, mainly removing pierce from base runes and pigeonholing pierce runes into 2 uberlevels, both requiring pierce in the first place in order to be farmable by said builds. But in the end the problem is Teganze being a shit level (big surprise it was added by Ultimative) and its charm grind being terrible design. It's a level designed to be "farmable" for hours, but only select few builds can farm it comfortably without wanting to kill yourself. It's basically Tran Athulua but worse in every way.

[void]

But currently, they do, especially for builds that need pierce or any other stat and don't get it inherently from skills.

The current situation with pierce is a result of several changes, mainly removing pierce from base runes and pigeonholing pierce runes into 2 uberlevels, both requiring pierce in the first place in order to be farmable by said builds. But in the end the problem is Teganze being a shit level (big surprise it was added by Ultimative) and its charm grind being terrible design. It's a level designed to be "farmable" for hours, but only select few builds can farm it comfortably without wanting to kill yourself. It's basically Tran Athulua but worse in every way.

I don't disagree with you at all.

However, this thread is about that one (1) thing, and there are many problems with itemization and drops, so I think it's much simpler and effective to go with the paradigm of "making chars more self-contained" like many top tier builds that are able to excel early ladder.
That way items become less important and we don't have to discuss itemization, which is more complicated and thus not in line with what the premise of this thread is.

/e: This could also happen through itemization, as some builds have easy top-tier runewords. But generally speaking, tuning the chars themselves seems much less complicated to me.

[CMBurns]

But currently, they do, especially for builds that need pierce or any other stat and don't get it inherently from skills.

The current situation with pierce is a result of several changes, mainly removing pierce from base runes and pigeonholing pierce runes into 2 uberlevels, both requiring pierce in the first place in order to be farmable by said builds. But in the end the problem is Teganze being a shit level (big surprise it was added by Ultimative) and its charm grind being terrible design. It's a level designed to be "farmable" for hours, but only select few builds can farm it comfortably without wanting to kill yourself. It's basically Tran Athulua but worse in every way.

I don't disagree with you at all.

However, this thread is about that one (1) thing, and there are many problems with itemization and drops, so I think it's much simpler and effective to go with the paradigm of "making chars more self-contained" like many top tier builds that are able to excel early ladder.
That way items become less important and we don't have to discuss itemization, which is more complicated and thus not in line with what the premise of this thread is.

/e: This could also happen through itemization, as some builds have easy top-tier runewords. But generally speaking, tuning the chars themselves seems much less complicated to me.

The premise of this thread is what would make you come back.

Itemization isn't a bad thing to mention. It's not bad in MXL, but there are too many items with no use because not enough builds are end game viable to use them.

[momope]

Honestly I want Halls of Torment and MXL to have a baby. I want to see interesting enemies/dungeons/bosses. MXL has so much heart and soul with the custom encounters, and the D2 engine looks and feels great to play on (ignoring online desync issues).

I don't care for farming the same areas more than a few times or gear crafting. I don't want to run through all the acts 3x anymore or put any significant effort into carefully skilling and gearing a character. I don't like POE at all not even a little bit, and I think Sigma does try to emulate POE on some level. A level that's higher than Laz's era.

For example Laz had so many bugs along with crazy high run speed, tons of ways to abuse and exploit content. You could fly through certain content and then spend extra time on content that you enjoyed or wanted to do. When re-specs were added to base D2, Laz had unlimited and unfettered re-specs. So imagine like you could play MXL as fast or as slow as you wanted. Some people want to slow roll it, really dig into their builds and theory craft, spend time thinking up interesting stat/skill/gear ideas. Other people just want to run around and kill stuff and see cool colors with a minor sense of progression. I think Laz supported both of these audiences (whether this was intentional or not) and was able to reach a higher and broader category of gamers than Sigma.


In contrast Sigma fixed character rushing exploits, reduced run speed, revived sprint/walk mechanic, revived restrictions for re-spec, and level gated content. I'm not your POE audience and that's fine we all don't have to like the same things, but it's not for me at all.

TLDR

Sigma's idea of a good time:

[masochista]

Honestly I want Halls of Torment and MXL to have a baby. I want to see interesting enemies/dungeons/bosses. MXL has so much heart and soul with the custom encounters and the D2 engine it looks and feels great to play on (ignoring online desync issues).

I don't care for farming the same areas more than a few times or gear crafting. I don't want to run through all the acts 3x anymore or put any significant effort into carefully skilling and gearing a character. I don't like POE at all not even a little bit, and I think Sigma does try to emulate POE on some level. A level that's higher than Laz's era.

For example Laz had so many bugs along along with crazy high run speed, tons of ways to abuse and exploit content. You could fly through certain content and then spend extra time on content that you enjoyed or wanted to do. When re-specs were added to base D2, Laz had unlimited and unfettered re-specs. So imagine like you could play MXL as fast or as slow as you wanted. Some people want to slow roll it, really dig into their builds and theory craft, spend time thinking up interesting stat/skill/gear ideas. Other people just want to run around and kill stuff and see cool colors with a minor sense of progression. I think Laz supported both of these audiences (whether this was intentional or not) and was able to reach a higher and broader category of gamers than Sigma.


In contrast Sigma fixed character rushing exploits, reduced run speed, revived sprint/walk mechanic, revived restrictions for re-spec, and level gated content. I'm not your POE audience and that's fine we all don't have to like the same things, but is not for me at all.

TLDR

Sigma's idea of a good time:

Exactly, I remember when I started playing MXL (early Ultimative versions) I was struggling and was farming Frozen Tundra or Blood Moor for gear, it was so thrilling, every area had potential to drop game-changing item for my character. Now it's just K3K, TA, Dunc, Fauzt and Scosglen on autopilot, it isn't fun after an hour :/ bring back monster boss packs from classic D2LOD. Then it would be more challenging, you could actually die because of something dangerous, not because you went to toilet and left your character idle. And make main campaign areas more rewarding, people would farm there as well.

[void]

TLDR

Sigma's idea of a good time:

This 100%! It's annoying how much the game has been turned into something where players have become forced to follow a set path with arbitrary barriers where one's progress is defined a lot by what content you are not allowed to do or what gear your SSF build doesn't have access to or have to trade for. Overall would be an improvement if gearing (or builds themselves a.k.a. free items/buffs) and uber progression gave some more leeway and "make the game easier" for the sake of giving the overall game more of a flow.

Level restriction on ubers < 135 would absolutely be less tedious and sometimes mentally painful if you got 5 levels from one or two clears and be able to move on.
I remember when K3K was a decent farming place at any level if you wanted sets, it could be more like that. The incentive is still there but there are no obligations.

But the leveling curve in the regular early game has its flaws as well.
So I've done playthroughs on all 7 classes and it has NEVER, not even once, occurred that I was able to enter Butcher's Lair, Binding of Baal or any other uber for that matter, at the time I naturally arrived there. Always was off by at least a few levels. But always got to do the same boring main story (Staff, Amulet, Brain, Eye, Flail, Heart) that I don't know if anyone even cares about. It seems to me that this is more a "design choice" to not confuse new players more than anything else.

It's not even that I can't appreciate the attempt to make the game feel more like you grow bit by bit, and have some backtracking too, but I don't think what we got now is working too great for MXL.