It's been a few years, Some questions.

@mxlcurious: Just play the mod. The best D2 mod ever, by far. No need to be curious. Indulge in all that is amazing. Become addicted. You'll see what we mean.

Quirinus wrote:it's not nonsense. it's real life, it's how everything works.

My blood pressure rises everytime someone uses real life as argument when talking about a game like diablo 2. The very point of games is that they're not real life.

Second, your argument is only true with a linear growth curve (which is a fantasy).

1 * 2 = 2
(1 * 1.6) + (1 * 1.6) = 3.2

The above will apply to just about everything in existence. Median however is mechanically highly against hybridization (a lengthy topic), leading to builds where you simply stack a few things and spam 1-2 skills, leaving you with very little REAL choice.

A good example of a hybrid vs non-hybrid is fighter/mage vs sorcerer or a wizard slayer in baldur's gate 2.

@cowking:
you'd have to define what hybrid really is. our difference of opinions comes from difference in the definition of what a hybrid is.

everything depends on the situation, tasks and skills that you can use.
what is also important is the task that the skills are used to solve, so skills with similar aim won't be used at the same time (obviously you'd use the one that seems superior).

the point is that all the best builds are "hybrids" as they use many skills that can co-exist because they are used for different tasks (if you'd call that hybrid; I wouldn't, let's call this the 1st definition of hybrid).
in the other sense, no good build is a "hybrid" (second definition), because if you use 2 skills that are designed for the same task, and one is superior, you'd be obviously less efficient if you used the worse skill.

so, hybrids of the second kind are bad. doesn't matter about the shape of the curve. if two skills have the same task, and you use the less efficient one, you lose out. where the skill is efficient if, in the grand scheme of things, it's the best one to use along the specific combination of the rest of the skills you use. the shape of the curve comes in calculating the efficiency of the complete set of skills, ie. in calculating the best first definition of "hybrid" that I wrote - which I don't consider a hybrid, but a non-hybrid.

the above works in any situation in RL or game, since it's an universal concept. so I'm very justified in saying that. you seem to imply or consider that the first definition is a more of a hybrid, and I vehemently disagree, that is my definition of a non-hybrid. some people would consider some of my non-hybrids to be their hybrids, so that's where the confusion comes from. so we maybe agree in the end, but just call things differently.

anyways, it's hard to explain exactly what I mean without writing a whole chapter of a book, so I'll stop here. I probably didn't explain exactly what I mean.

This thread seems way offtopic and the OP is making some assumptions about the game he is not very good at.

So to the original questions:
1) Yes the game is dynamically balanced. ALL classes can complete EVERYTHING, you just have to be a good enough player or compensate shortcomings with gear and tricks. Certain areas will of course have different difficulty depending on the class. Paladin especially has barely changed with the new skills so you're obviously heavily misinformed.

2) Playerbase is good. More real people to play with and better community compared to bot infested battle.net.

To put it in other words, you quit because you couldn't overcome the difficulty of some uber with your paladin and it's easier to blame "game balance lol" than improving.

Quirinus wrote:everything depends on the situation, tasks and skills that you can use.

what is also important is the task that the skills are used to solve, so skills with similar aim won't be used at the same time (obviously you'd use the one that seems superior).

the point is that all the best builds are "hybrids" as they use many skills that can co-exist because they are used for different tasks (if you'd call that hybrid; I wouldn't, let's call this the 1st definition of hybrid).
in the other sense, no good build is a "hybrid" (second definition), because if you use 2 skills that are designed for the same task, and one is superior, you'd be obviously less efficient if you used the worse skill.

the shape of the curve comes in calculating the efficiency of the complete set of skills, ie. in calculating the best first definition of "hybrid" that I wrote - which I don't consider a hybrid, but a non-hybrid.

the above works in any situation in RL or game, since it's an universal concept

You're saying a summoner throwbarb is NOT a hybrid, while a completely irrational cascade trap rat is (which is just... no). I would rather define type B hybrid as hybrid by itemization (like a 4 FPA cata/balefire clawsin), as there are barely any real hybrids in the game by your definition, nor is there any reason to make one.

... wtf ...

Regarding the "specialities" discussion... nothing to add. If you focus all your gear into fire damage, then your cold spells won't be so strong.

As for the hybrids discussion - yes hybrids are possible in median. But most people fail at them because they fail in the theorycraft / gearing process. Example: you want to make an hybrid that uses both spells and weapon damage. Equipping %lifesteal is inefficient because spells do not leech. But equipping for example "Life after each kill" does. What I'm trying to say is that you need to be efficient in the gearing process since you have a limited amount of gear to enhance your build. If you don't do this part correctly then there's no point in blaming the mod because your caster paladin isn't doing much damage from melee attacks.

Speaking of paladins and hybrids, I did make a short guide some time ago. It's one of the strongest builds I played and it used massive skill switch. Dragon paladin is in fact a build that is meant to be played as an hybrid, so you can see the mod does indeed promote playing such builds.

Either way this topic sounds pretty much like a "plz convince me to play" thread. As Greg said, you should probably just play the game, have less prejudices and have some fun.

If we are going to talk about game design theory.
Again, I am not bashing Median XL, just having a conversation.

Why should I be limited to use only skills (1 and 2), or skill set (3 and 4), or skill set (5 and 6)?
There is no reason I shouldn't be able to use skills (1 and 6), or skills (3 and 5).
This "you are good at this so you are bad at that" is arbitrary, why not bad at something else? There are arbitrary separations of skill types that only limit what builds you can have, and force cookie cut out builds.
These are arbitrary concepts designed by people, that players have accepted over the years.

Diablo 3 ALMOST got it right with being able to use whatever The #@$ you wanted, but they messed up in other ways I don't need to get into.
One of the things D3 actually got right was that every skill is based on % weapon damage, so every skill scales.

The only reason there is such of a thing as a ''hybrid'' is because of this arbitrary separation of skill types, ie you can't use skill 1 with skill 6.
But anyway, this is just game mechanic theory, and why there should not be any such thing as a ''hybrid,'' if skills did not randomly exclude each other due to a poor skill design concept.
If I want to cast a lightning bolt, and then run in and swing my sword, I should be able to do so, it doesn't make me over powered, it's just a play style.

About the real life example. If I go do push ups for 2 hours a day ( yeah right lol!) and then read science books for 2 hours a day, I will both be physically strong, and good at science. There is no reason for them to be mutually exclusive, but If I do push ups for 2 hours a day, and play poker for 2 hours a day, obviously I am not going to know that much about science. Because of what skills I choose to use that is what I am good at, there is no reason to have this arbitrary exclusion of "if you do 2 hours of push ups you can't read science books also". It is an arbitrary separation of skills.

P.S. Sorry for using the word arbitrary so much, but it seems to fit.

mxlcurious wrote:If we are going to talk about game design theory.
Again, I am not bashing Median XL, just having a conversation.

Yes, I think and hope we all are doing this here

mxlcurious wrote:Why should I be limited to use only skills (1 and 2), or skill set (3 and 4), or skill set (5 and 6)?
There is no reason I shouldn't be able to use skills (1 and 6), or skills (3 and 5).
This "you are good at this so you are bad at that" is arbitrary, why not bad at something else? There are arbitrary separations of skill types that only limit what builds you can have, and force cookie cut out builds.
These are arbitrary concepts designed by people, that players have accepted over the years.

Again, I think you're talking about some character's mechanic that restricts where you can put your skills, like my previous example of the paladin, which cannot put points into holy skills if he already put one or more into unholy skills and vice versa.

I believe that to be not only a question of balance (as I said such mechanic is not strictly necessary, but it does inherently help balancing things because it restricts player choice somewhat), but also in some cases a question of "does it make sense"? And in the case of a paladin it is pretty obvious (in the somewhat simplified game world of Sanctuary) that a holy warrior can not be both a holy warrior of light and a holy warrior of darkness.

In some other cases that fact is also dictated by lore, I'm 95% sure about this. For example, when a sorceress uses Baneblade skill, she's buffed in melee but that skill lets her only use summon and buff / debuff skills.
Why? Is it to balance the game? Surely.
Is it to purposefully limit player choices? In a way, sort of. In the sort of way that is needed to game balance, not to purposefully limit builds.

But also, I see a lore reason. The sorceress is blessed by a goddess, that grants the buff. This goddess imposes her limits and her will on the sorc. She's a goddess in melee, so we can assume she may have some kind of friction with the gods and goddesses that are known / revered by mage characters, so it's also safe to assume this goddess would impose some kind of restriction like that.

That's my take at least, since Median is an ARPG I also look for the RPG elements in it.

mxlcurious wrote:About the real life example. If I go do push ups for 2 hours a day ( yeah right lol!) and then read science books for 2 hours a day, I will both be physically strong, and good at science. There is no reason for them to be mutually exclusive, but If I do push ups for 2 hours a day, and play poker for 2 hours a day, obviously I am not going to know that much about science. Because of what skills I choose to use that is what I am good at, there is no reason to have this arbitrary exclusion of "if you do 2 hours of push ups you can't read science books also". It is an arbitrary separation of skills.

P.S. Sorry for using the word arbitrary so much, but it seems to fit.

I completely agree, but if you train 2 hours and study / do science 2 hours you still won't be as strong as a full time bodybuilder that trains 4 hours a day (assuming no limit on physical strength) and you won't be as smart / knowledgable as a full time scientist / student that does science / studies 4 hours a day (assuming no limit on intelligence or knowledge).

Of course this isn't exactly right, because both of those things have limits, but in Median that's generally not the case (beside diminishing returns) so if you spec even more for melee damage, you'll do more melee damage, but at the expense of other things.

As others have said the most important factors in being successful at late game is being smart about itemization and player skill.

If we are going to talk about game design theory.

No. There's the problem.

I'll use my favorite line for this thread.. "everything is OP if used correctly by the right player"